Best practice for TV/HT/Audio setup? Central or Distributed?

[SpuTTer]

As I mention in another thread, we are doing a large remodel. I'm having trouble figuring out the best way to handle my home theatre and audio. I am a computer dork and "software guy" and I'm cheap

I'm also doing a security setup (most likely ELK M1) and lighting most likely via OnQ ALC.

Also whole house audio which I was currently thinking of home running all to the cabinet and hooking to a PC, but the same question applies, central or distributed.

For the video/tv stuff:

I will have TV's in:

Living room (want HT here)
game room (also HT here + ping pong,etc)
kitchen (just stereo tv is fine)
barn (just stereo tv is fine)
patio (future may want HT, but not required)

I have an AV closet upstairs which will be connected to some kind of home automation system.

I like the idea of central media server / dvr up in the AV closet.

Now, when I was thinking about this, I guess there are two ways to go (at least).

1) Centralize all hardware up in the AV closet, just have the TV's/speakers at the desired locations. Controll via pc/remote/whatever best solution is.

2) Centralize media servers, and have local stereo, HTPC, whatever at each point

Option 1 sounds really neat, but is it practical? Oh, also, do you typically have a local say, DVD player, even if you run a centralized system, for convenience?

I also plan to home run speakers from every room for whole house audio / intercom / notification for future use (this will probably be controlled by a PC solution).

What option would be most flexible?
What option would cost less long term?

at this point, I dont need to have a hard set hardware solution, but my main concert right now is WIRING.

I need to have wiring up in about 3 weeks.

Wire I have now:

I have a 1000' spool of QSRG6 on it's way
I have as much CAT5e and I need to get.
I have 250' of 14/2 speaker cable (I may need to get more)


Please see my AVS forum (copy of thread) for the house plan pictures:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....=1#post14739193

 

[sic0048]

Well I would say play and wire for the centralized plan, but do it in such a way that you could ru either scenerio. For example, run all your speaker wire back to the central closet, but if there is a obvious spot where you would place the a/v equipment locally, make sure you loop the speaker wire to that location. Then if you even decided to run equipment locally, you just find the speaker wire and cut it at that local spot and hook it up to the equipment. But you could splice it back together if you even went back to a centralized system.

Also, while wiring for everthing is important right now while you have the walls open, your layout allows you pretty easy access to wire in the future in some areas of the house. I have a split level like you, and have done similar things. You really need to concentrate on the lower level since it has no crawl space or attic access. This is the part of the house that doesn't have easy access in the future (although you can get to the rooms adjacent to the crawl space even then). So make sure you wire this area well now. While the walls are open, I would also run wires upstairs to any exterior wall just because the insulation makes this harder to do in the future. But the upstairs interior walls should be fairly easy to access in the future from the attic. With your wiring closet being on the top floor, these runs will be easy to make in the future.

So while I would recommend running ALL the wiring now if you can, if you need to skip due to budget constraints, the interior walls of the top floor will be easy to access in the future.

Also, while the QSRG-6 wire is needed for raw broadcast TV signals (cable, sat, antenna feeds, etc), it isn't really designed to distribute component video signals. Do a quick search on AVS for precision coaxial cable and you can read all about it. But I would highly suggest you get a roll of precision coaxial cable to run any component and line level audio signals.

 

[SpuTTer]

Auh crap I thought I had the RG6 figured out, and I spent more and got the solid copper core. I have 1000' coming, dang

So you are saying basically that using the RG6 would have been fine if I was running sat/OTA/cable to the TV's, but since I'm looking at doing distributed, I only need the RG6 going to the closet from the source, and I should be running the precision coaxial from the closet out to all the monitors?

I don't mind getting more cable, but I need to do that fairly quickly, I'll try to source a spool of this precision stuff after doing some research.

What options do I have for the QSRG6?

For others reference, this thread here talks about the precision coax:

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=531701

and it sounds like they are refering to using two cables by Belden, an (RG59) cable called 1505a and (RG6) cable called 1694a depending on application.
The 1505a is more flexible and good for interconnect. The 1694a is fine too, but just harder to work with.

I'm also gathering that the QSRG6 solid copper that I bought is also probably fine, but it's going to be harder to work with.

Quick estimates for pricing on the two Belden products appears to be about $450 for a 1000' spool plus shipping. I was able to pick up my solid copper QS for about $150. It does also appear that smaller rolls are available for about the ratio per foot, I saw one place had a 500' spool.

So now the question. I'd rather not waste the 1000' of cable I have now, and $450 for coax seems like a lot ( $150 seemed like a lot ;P ), other than having to be really carefull not to kink my RG6, and being stiffer to work with, any other physical problem with not using it?

Thanks for mentioning all this!

 

[tmbrown97]

one other trick to throw out there... if you're running more than one wire (say 2+ coax, or 2+ Cat5) at any location, you're better off with more smaller spools. You don't want to run each wire one by one - and trying to guess how long results in a lot of waste generally.

For my house, each wall plate had 3 Cat5e and 3 Coax, so I used 3 boxes of Cat5 and 3 spools of coax so I could make a bundle to pull from each location back to the central point. For my central point, we used the livingroom entertainment nook (Cali doesn't have basements, and I'm already short on storage space)... So far, that's where we've left all the equipment in the house.

 

[sic0048]

Well the big benefit to precision coax is the solid copper core and copper coated shielding. So if the coax that you got has at least the sold copper core, that is a good thing. What is the brand and product number for the wire that you did get? You may actually have precision coax and not even know it.

This is what I personally ran to each potential TV location: 4-5 precision mini-coax (to handle component video + digital or analog sound), 2 cat5e wires, and 2 RG-6 wires (you really only need 1 now - it's been years since I've seen a TV that allowed you to plug both an antenna and cable feed into the TV at the same time). I think you will want to run the regular RG-6 wire even if you run the precision coax because you may still want to plug the antenna or cable line directly into the TV and not worry about using the distribution system.

I used a Coleman precision mini-coax cable (something like #99401). I purchased my locally for about $225/1000' roll, but someone here found it via the internet for less than $200 if my memory serves me right. I then used the cheap RG-6 wire for my raw feeds. That ran about $65/1000'. Normal cat5e wire is fine - I see no need for Cat6 wire (although the price has dropped dramatically on it). Cat5e wire runs about $65/1000' too.

So my $500 estimate was for:
$400 - 2000' precision mini coax
$65 - 1000' regular RG-6 cable
$65 - 1000' cat5e wire

So perhaps the total will be closer to $550, but I threw that number out without thinking about it too much.

 

[TonyStewart]

Well the big benefit to precision coax is the solid copper core and copper coated shielding. So if the coax that you got has at least the sold copper core, that is a good thing. What is the brand and product number for the wire that you did get? You may actually have precision coax and not even know it.

This is what I personally ran to each potential TV location: 4-5 precision mini-coax (to handle component video + digital or analog sound), 2 cat5e wires, and 2 RG-6 wires (you really only need 1 now - it's been years since I've seen a TV that allowed you to plug both an antenna and cable feed into the TV at the same time). I think you will want to run the regular RG-6 wire even if you run the precision coax because you may still want to plug the antenna or cable line directly into the TV and not worry about using the distribution system.

I used a Coleman precision mini-coax cable (something like #99401). I purchased my locally for about $225/1000' roll, but someone here found it via the internet for less than $200 if my memory serves me right. I then used the cheap RG-6 wire for my raw feeds. That ran about $65/1000'. Normal cat5e wire is fine - I see no need for Cat6 wire (although the price has dropped dramatically on it). Cat5e wire runs about $65/1000' too.

So my $500 estimate was for:
$400 - 2000' precision mini coax
$65 - 1000' regular RG-6 cable
$65 - 1000' cat5e wire

So perhaps the total will be closer to $550, but I threw that number out without thinking about it too much.

In a perfect world............
Any good cable could be adapted and used no matter what future TV sets require as inputs. But we all know this is not likely. So.....

You stated that you were doing a remodel. Is it possible to build a place for a local Sat Receiver or DVD player at each TV? Then place the set very close to the video sources. Even with distributed video the DVD player should be in the same room as the TV. Who wants to walk to another room to change the DVD? If the DVD player needs to be local to the TV, then a case for distributed Video is at best a hybrid.

If the video source is local to the TV then changing the cabling is a simple matter. Better yet, do this.

In our training center we spent a lot of time thinking about both approaches. And we came up with a little of both. We built a "patch panel" near each of our Flat Panels and projectors. Then we hid these behind the sets. And we built another "patch panel" in our distribution room (equipment rack). We also installed several runs of flexible plastic tubing called "Smurf Pipe" and put pull strings inside. While we initially installed an abundance of DVI, HDMI, VGA, Coax-5 and Cat5 cables, our smurf pipe allows us to keep growing.

That takes care of distributed Video/Audio. For the local sources we installed more patch panels on the counter under each TV (with more smurf). Taking it one step further, we wanted to allow our students to be able to access all our subsystems from their desks. Here too we used the patch panel approach. When we teach Home Theater Workshops, each student can link components together from their desk to build a distributed system. Click here to see a video of our showroom and the patch panels.

Of course cost is a factor. So, use more smurf pipe and less cable.

 

[SpuTTer]

sic0048:

I dont know the brand yet on the cable, I can post when it arrives (should be very soon). As far as I know it's "desgined for satellite tv" but who knows until it gets here! They are definitly not the mini coax version, but we'll see! I'll see if I can track some cheap precision mini coax down, but I may just wait and run it through smurf tube later if needed, and try to use the SCC rg6 that I already have coming for now.

Number20:

I definitely have room for local things. Honestly, I wasn't even going to do any home automation or anything, but I realized that if I don't do it now (or at least run the wiring) it's going to be a problem later. I am planning to run conduit (It sounds like smurf tube is the way to go, and I'll find some and do that).

I think you are right in a hybrid approach. This would actually serve me really well at this point anyhow, because I can run all the infrastructure for the centralized approach, but I could actually run everything local at this time.

Another person had pointed out that if I was really clever, I could run the 7.1 speakers past a central location box like you are talking about, and then run the cables from there back to the AV cabinet. This would offer flexibility to run the 5.1 locally off a receiver for now, and be able to easily do some solder and have it all home run. Any problems with this approach? This basically sounds like what you are suggesting and makes a lot of sense!

This approach sounds good, easy now locally, easier to run later if things change too much.

Thanks!

 

[TonyStewart]

sic0048:

I dont know the brand yet on the cable, I can post when it arrives (should be very soon). As far as I know it's "desgined for satellite tv" but who knows until it gets here! They are definitly not the mini coax version, but we'll see! I'll see if I can track some cheap precision mini coax down, but I may just wait and run it through smurf tube later if needed, and try to use the SCC rg6 that I already have coming for now.

Number20:

I definitely have room for local things. Honestly, I wasn't even going to do any home automation or anything, but I realized that if I don't do it now (or at least run the wiring) it's going to be a problem later. I am planning to run conduit (It sounds like smurf tube is the way to go, and I'll find some and do that).

I think you are right in a hybrid approach. This would actually serve me really well at this point anyhow, because I can run all the infrastructure for the centralized approach, but I could actually run everything local at this time.

Another person had pointed out that if I was really clever, I could run the 7.1 speakers past a central location box like you are talking about, and then run the cables from there back to the AV cabinet. This would offer flexibility to run the 5.1 locally off a receiver for now, and be able to easily do some solder and have it all home run. Any problems with this approach? This basically sounds like what you are suggesting and makes a lot of sense!

This approach sounds good, easy now locally, easier to run later if things change too much.

Thanks!

The smurf (slang name) can be found at Lowes or Home Depot. However, they may have to order the larger diameter sizes (to pass HDMI or DVI pre-connectorized ends through). And don't go overboard with how many feet you need. Instead run smurf from the jack housing (behind the walls of course) up into the attic or down into the crawl space. Cover the ends of the tubing with duct tape to keep trash or insulation out of it. You can use a standard vaccum cleaner to put a pull string into the tubing. Use part number ac1009-02 dual gang open back low voltage boxes so that you can reach into the wall cavity with your entire hand when you are ready to use the Smurf.

Looping the speaker cable will work fine as you described. But smurf is cheaper than speaker cable.

God Bless
TS

 

[CollinR]

I too think both is best wiring from a local location to a central location. Several reasons for this but IMHO the biggest thing with home automation should be versatility. Whenever you lock yourself into anything of cost with cost in consideration.

As was mentioned wiring to a central location but looping it into a local location allows you to in the future utilize that but up front it only costs the extra wire, your extra labor a junction box and cover.

The big problem is where to put the junction box and what wire to start with.

Now is also the time to futureproof so running some fiber might not be that bad an idea.

Areas where you know you can never access again onec the drywall is up should be treated differently.

Keep in mind Cat5e/Cat6 can carry almost anything, it is probably the most versatile wire today. Luckily it's also cheap and readily available. I don't know that you could pull too much of it.

I don't plan on running any more RG6 or RG59.

If you use an IP based distribution system you have no quality loss between the data storage and the local location further you don't need a direct cable link only need a link to any switch that has a link.

 

[sic0048]

sic0048:

I dont know the brand yet on the cable, I can post when it arrives (should be very soon). As far as I know it's "desgined for satellite tv" but who knows until it gets here! They are definitly not the mini coax version, but we'll see! I'll see if I can track some cheap precision mini coax down, but I may just wait and run it through smurf tube later if needed, and try to use the SCC rg6 that I already have coming for now.

Well I am only using the mini size because it was cheaper than the RG-59 or RG-6 precision coaxial cables - but they do make precision coaxial cable in all three sizes. The mini coax has slightly shorter limits, but I think it is still about 225' which is plenty for most residential uses. The larger cables are rated to send signals farther distances, but they also have more copper in them (they are larger diameter) and therefore cost more. I simply used the cheapest cable that would do the job properly.

Now is also the time to futureproof so running some fiber might not be that bad an idea.

Not to get this thread too far off topic, but do you really think fiber will ever really be embraced in a residential setting and be economical?

 

[gatchel]

Fiber to the home...why not fiber to the box. Anything is possible. Who is ever going to need more than 16k of RAM...

 

[bfisher]

Just to give you another idea on video distribution (Collin was touching on it with Cat5 wiring recommendations)...

I like the SageTV concept... install video server in your closet which records everything and plays your DVDs, and then put small extenders at each TV (connected via Cat5). Much simpler wiring (no need for RG wiring), plus much more flexible and powerful. Plenty of threads here about SageTV if this is interesting.

 

[CollinR]

Fiber to the home...why not fiber to the box. Anything is possible. Who is ever going to need more than 16k of RAM...

Hey you stole my quote!!! :lol:

I like the SageTV concept... install video server in your closet which records everything and plays your DVDs, and then put small extenders at each TV (connected via Cat5). Much simpler wiring (no need for RG wiring), plus much more flexible and powerful. Plenty of threads here about SageTV if this is interesting.

SageTV is the best bang:buck for the tech savy! I just didn't mention the name, I guess I was planning another paragraph.

 

[royalj7]

sic0048:

I dont know the brand yet on the cable, I can post when it arrives (should be very soon). As far as I know it's "desgined for satellite tv" but who knows until it gets here! They are definitly not the mini coax version, but we'll see! I'll see if I can track some cheap precision mini coax down, but I may just wait and run it through smurf tube later if needed, and try to use the SCC rg6 that I already have coming for now.

I would careful using standard RG6QS for your baseband video distribution. Saying it's harder to work with is kind of an understatement. Most folks run 2+2 CAT5 and RG6 to their standard outlets, and this is pretty thick bundle to work with. If you are running 4-5 RG6 for distributed video (component + audio) along with CAT5, that is going to be unwieldy and require a very large hole or multiple smaller ones. In a new house this is more a PITA than a barrier, but I would think in a remodel this becomes a pretty big concern (it was for me during my remodel).

Video over IP is an option and CAT5 is cheaper than the precision coax we are talking about. But the equipment/balums/converters used in various systems can quickly bring the cost up to or above the coax approach.

 

[CollinR]

Not to mention there is no upgrade path for RG, if in the future you cannot get a component device you are #$&*ed!
With Cat5 it can be composite, component, RGBHV, DVI, HDMI, Ethernet, analog audio, digital audio, IR, basic contact signaling...

I would run regular RG6QS to wherever you think you might want a cable box and thats it.

Since you already bought copper RG6 I would use it too but I wouldn't buy more, just pull what you think you may use and be happy. Use this in combination with your central/distributed setup. As was mentioned a local DVD player can be a nice feature so pull 5 runs there (thats right 5!) compared to Cat5 @ 1 (component+digial coaxial).