Can I wire my Smoke Detector to Elk or HAI??

Total newb here.

I've got an existing smoke system that I'd like to retrofit into a new ELK or HAI panel (still deciding) and the answer to this question might help me decide.

Here's the wiring diagram for the existing smokes...
smokedetectorwiring.jpg


It's a "BRK Electronics" sys for what it's worth. Maybe 8 or so detectors all connected to each other. I see references to "two-wire" detectors in the HAI documents, but I'm not sure if this would work. Could the "interconnect" wire and a panel ground serve as a loop for a single zone smoke detector circuit?

Any help would be appreciated.

Chuck
 
You first need to find out if the smoke detectors are fire system detectors which enable them to connect to a fire control panel like the ELK M1. Then you need to find out if they are 4 wire or two wire detectors. 4 wire detectors have two power wires and two alarm wires. 2 wire detectors have two wires which are power and alarm triggering combination. They need to operate from 12VDC. The BRK detectors may be several years old.

You cannot use the common alarm signal wires that make all the sounders turn on if any detector activates to connect to the fire alarm control.
 
Hmm... the alarms are all 120VAC powered so it would seem they aren't candidates for wiring into a panel.

Another consideration... the alarms are "supposed" to be wired into a single isolated breaker circuit. So essentially I have a 14 gauge romex loop wired between every single smoke location. With a bit of work with wire nuts at the j-boxes, I could wire a bunch of "new" 2-wire detectors in series. The electrical panel is in the same room as will be the security panel. This would save having to run wires to all the bedrooms etc. -- 5000 sqft house so we're talking alot of work.

Other than making sure that it isn't cross-wired with another AC circuit, can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't do this?
 
ChuckSchick said:
Hmm... the alarms are all 120VAC powered so it would seem they aren't candidates for wiring into a panel.

Another consideration... the alarms are "supposed" to be wired into a single isolated breaker circuit. So essentially I have a 14 gauge romex loop wired between every single smoke location. With a bit of work with wire nuts at the j-boxes, I could wire a bunch of "new" 2-wire detectors in series. The electrical panel is in the same room as will be the security panel. This would save having to run wires to all the bedrooms etc. -- 5000 sqft house so we're talking alot of work.

Other than making sure that it isn't cross-wired with another AC circuit, can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't do this?
i would take down the smokes you have and put up new 12volt smokes useing the 110 wire that is in the boxes.......... just make shure all of your smokes are on the same loop.
 
Or, what you really need is a single detector with a relay contact closure. You should be able to replace just one of your detectors with this one. The contact closure would wire into the control panel for siren/monitoring purposes, etc. The closure should be triggered when any detector in the loop triggers.

You may want to check code in your area. In some places it is required to have these AC smokes and replacing them with 12V ones may violate code. Its possible, god forbid your house burns down that insurance may deny claims because you don't have code compliant detectors, so just be safe and check first.

I always leave the 120V ones in place and just add 12V ones in addition - can't be too safe.

Edit:
Other than making sure that it isn't cross-wired with another AC circuit, can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't do this? Other than making sure that it isn't cross-wired with another AC circuit, can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't do this?
Not a good idea imo - you can't run LV into the breaker panel, so what would you do, run romex from breaker panel to the security panel? Remember, this is a life safety system, don't take shortcuts for convenience.
 
Good advice. I just ran across this item on the smoke manufacturer's website....

brkrelay.jpg


Is this the solution? Essentially it gives me a form C relay dependent upon the alarm state. I've got several easy wiring routes from the smoke detector chain to the wiring panel.
 
thewireguy said:
I would take down the smokes you have and put up new 12volt smokes useing the 110 wire that is in the boxes.......... just make shure all of your smokes are on the same loop.
Can you mix and match this type of smoke detector with common ones already in the home? Reason I ask is I have seven of these, most would be hard to get at trying to add any additional wiring back to my security panel.

IF you can mix these with ones already in the home, would they work in the existing loop? In other words if one of the original alarms went off would it trip this new one?

If so this would be great as I would only have to add one alarm to my panel to get an indication if any of the smoke alarms went off (which is fine for my what I want as an indication of smoke trouble). I have a couple of places out of those seven where I could get a pair of wires to.

Thanks,

BSR
 
ChuckSchick said:
Is this the solution? Essentially it gives me a form C relay dependent upon the alarm state. I've got several easy wiring routes from the smoke detector chain to the wiring panel.
Yep, thats cool that they make an add on for it, others just have it built in to the detector. You should be able to just wire that into any zone on the panel and you can test that zone for state to decide what to do. I know it is easy to do with the Elk and rules, but I am not familiar with the Omni but imagine it is easy as well.

Can you mix and match this type of smoke detector with common ones already in the home? Reason I ask is I have seven of these, most would be hard to get at trying to add any additional wiring back to my security panel.
BSR - Are you asking if you can mix 120 and 12V detectors? I believe thewireguy was just suggesting to use your existing romex for wiring instead of running new firewire. What is your goal? It sound the same as Chuck - hook existing 120V detectors to the panel? If thats true then it is the same answer - use a smoke with a form c relay, or add one of these add ons that Chuck mentioned.
 
The problem with the external relay approach is that the relays don't work if your 120 VAC power is out.

GE makes a line voltage smoke detector that works in tandem with other GE detectors, has builtin battery backup, and has a builtin relay that can be connected to an alarm panel.

http://www.prosecuritys.com/350cx.html (with builtin relay)

In my case, I hope to use the one of the above mentioned detectors along with a half dozen of the compatible non relay version in my new home.

http://www.prosecuritys.com/350.html (without builtin relay)

At least if I accidentally mess up the alarm panel, I will still have a reasonably operable smoke detector subsystem.
 
Steve said:
BSR - Are you asking if you can mix 120 and 12V detectors? I believe thewireguy was just suggesting to use your existing romex for wiring instead of running new firewire. What is your goal? It sound the same as Chuck - hook existing 120V detectors to the panel? If thats true then it is the same answer - use a smoke with a form c relay, or add one of these add ons that Chuck mentioned.
Hi Steve;

Thanks for the reply. Here is my situation. I have seven "regular" 120 volt smoke detectors in my home (original install when I purchased the home). I would like to somehow incorporate these into my automation system so I would somehow like to get a contact closure when any of those smoke alarms went off.

I did do an experimental hack into the "sense" line that tripped all the smokes if one went off, but later decided not to use this method due to regulations and risk of somehow damaging the existing system (even did a How-To on this and had it reviewed by two Cocooners, but later decided not to post it due to these concerns).

What would be really cool is if I could only replace ONE of the smoke detectors with a magical version that would not only provide a contact closure when it went off, but also could sense when the others went off. Thus I would only have to run a pair of wires to this one smoke detector, AND only have to replace one of the seven existing ones.

Maybe some external relay methods mentioned here? I'm just not that familiar with smokes and their options/compatibilities.

Thanks,

BSR
 
The ideal would be one with built in relay like the GE coldfeet linked to but the problem is I think many of them have proprietary signalling, in other words, will they all go off when one does. If it was standard, then all you would have to do is replace the one and wire it to the panel. Maybe check the brand you have now and see if the manufacturer makes one with a relay that is compatible. Otherwise the external relay listed should work.
 
coldfeet said:
The problem with the external relay approach is that the relays don't work if your 120 VAC power is out.
Interesting. At least the audible alarm will be sounding with the batteries, the panel just won't be calling the monitoring station.
 
I don't have my NFPA book handy but the smoke detector circuit that is existing in the house is not listed to signal a remote station. Although the relay "could" do this, it would not be listed for this purpose. It also would not work in a power failure or be supervised. This means that no sane person would sell it. Now that I have gone through the legal side of this let me give you my personal advice, don't do it!
The smoke detectors that the electrical contractor puts in to meet code are most likely Ion detectors that cost about $8.00ea. I would never place a Ion detector in a house. They false out due to moisture and grease. Photo-electric smoke detectors detect particles of combustion rather than gases of combustion. Most fires in the home have visible smoke and are rarely the result of alcohol or other fast burning clean sources.
I would think twice about "tapping" on to these devices when they will be dispatching about 2 million dollars worth of fire apparatus to your location. If your jurisdiction doesn't charge for false alarms, they will soon.
With regard to using existing wire, although it is a stretch, a normal interconnected smoke circuit is three wires and a ground. This gives you four conductors of 14 AWG or better. This assumes that there are are no "T" taps and no other common circuits. If removed from the breaker panel and re-routed to the alarm panel you could use this to drive smokes with sounders on a 4-wire circuit using the RRS-mod reversing relay. If you have 7 smoke detector locations there is no way to do this on a 2-wire circuit due to current draw limitations.
 
If you have 7 smoke detector locations there is no way to do this on a 2-wire circuit due to current draw limitations.

There are many 2wire smokes that draw micro amps in standby and milliamps in alarm. Sounders bulit into the detectors are not required by the NFPA if I remember correctly but if they are there are detectors with sounders that draw about 50 ma in alarm including the sounders. If you dont use the detecors with sounders built in you can rely on the sounders from the panel.

BTW the ELK is Listed by UL for use with 20 System Sensor 2WB detectors on zone 16. I tried it myself and it works (all 20). I dont know if they have the 2WBT-A evaluated yet (thats teh System Sensor 2 wire with thermal and sounder).

As far as using 14 gauge wire you have to see of the terminal block on the detector will handle the 14 solid. If not you have to pigtail them. Make sure you use an end of line relay if you go with 4 wire detectors.

There are also wireless detectors with local sounders.

I WOULD NOT try and salvage the 120 V detectors. They are not worth it in my opinion.
 
Digger said:
There are many 2wire smokes that draw micro amps in standby and milliamps in alarm. Sounders bulit into the detectors are not required by the NFPA if I remember correctly but if they are there are detectors with sounders that draw about 50 ma in alarm including the sounders. If you dont use the detecors with sounders built in you can rely on the sounders from the panel.

BTW the ELK is Listed by UL for use with 20 System Sensor 2WB detectors on zone 16. I tried it myself and it works (all 20). I dont know if they have the 2WBT-A evaluated yet (thats teh System Sensor 2 wire with thermal and sounder).
Sorry, I was talking about local sounders on the smokes. Most panels reach their current limit at about three 2-wire smokes with audible.
I think NFPA calls for dB when measured at the pillow. It could possibly be considered negligent if someone replaced 7 interconnected audible single station smoke detectors with non-audible detectors. This assumes that an existing detector is in each bedroom.
Consider adding just one detector per floor to the alarm panel (for calling fire dept.) and leaving the 110V detectors to wake sleeping occupants.
 
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