Ceiling speaker installation
- Thread starter MrSpeed
- Start date
pete_c
Guru
The two ceiling speakers that I installed are the middle a bit behind the center for the 7.1 sound. The rear speakers are self contained on pivotal braces. The family room is under the carpeted master bedroom. Cranking does rattle the walls a bit. At this time would almost have to use come sort of flexible solution to box the speakers.
The family room ceiling cavity though was pretty open with the ceiling joists on the bottom of the cavity and floor joists on the top of the cavity. It appears almost to have been designed for 9 foot ceilings with a last minute change to an 8 foot ceiling. My only comparison being the neighbors home and looking at the open ceiling (after a plumbing mishap) and seeing only the joists space.
The family room ceiling cavity though was pretty open with the ceiling joists on the bottom of the cavity and floor joists on the top of the cavity. It appears almost to have been designed for 9 foot ceilings with a last minute change to an 8 foot ceiling. My only comparison being the neighbors home and looking at the open ceiling (after a plumbing mishap) and seeing only the joists space.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Hey Mav - it sounds like your speakers are in between floors, which means essentially they are enclosed anyways - just by nature of stud framing/sheetrock, etc. In my particular case, I'm a single-story ranch house, so above my ceiling sheetrock is nothing but open air and the nastiest blown-in fiberglass I've ever come in contact with.
Monk
Active Member
An awesome thread Neurorad - I started on it last night and am still going.... Bummer that the monoprice site is down though. (message says till the 9th)
Thanks
I highly recommend Dynamat in-ceiling back-boxes for any speaker being installed in a hollow ceiling cavity, an unconditioned attic space and/or being installed in a boundary surface adjacent to another living space where noise transfer is an issue [i.e. bedroom]. They are retro-fittable through circular cut-outs, protect speakers from moisture and temperature extremes and minimize noise transfer to adjacent living spaces.
The only thing the Dynamat boxes will not do is provide fire-rated barrier.
Best of luck---
pete_c
Guru
Thanks for the recommendations.
I haven't moved my ceiling speakers to 7.1 receiver (haven't bought one yet) but been switching sound between these and the rear ones and combining them to see how they sound.
Another thing that I noticed was while working in the space above my family room that the joists above were on 16" centers but the ceiling joists were maybe 32". I have never see that before. (both sets of joists were 2X6 or 2X8)
I haven't moved my ceiling speakers to 7.1 receiver (haven't bought one yet) but been switching sound between these and the rear ones and combining them to see how they sound.
Another thing that I noticed was while working in the space above my family room that the joists above were on 16" centers but the ceiling joists were maybe 32". I have never see that before. (both sets of joists were 2X6 or 2X8)
mdesmarais
Active Member
I hope it doesn't snow where you live. ;-)
Well, keep in mind that Pete is talking about the gap inbetween two living spaces. The floor joists for the upper floor are the normal 16" on center. The frame that holds the ceiling below the floor joists are what is 32" on center. I agree that that seems excessive, but it isn't structural in any way - it simply is there to hang the drywall ceiling on.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
I did a little checking and indeed found speaker boxes for ceiling applications. They primarily advertised themselves for the sake of fire rating a room and for preventing sound from traveling as easily to the room upstairs. They probably would also be a good idea if you have an unisulated attic above to prevent heat loss. As far as changing sound quality, I can tell you from my days in college when I took a physics of sound class that your answer would be extremely complicated based on a ton of variables. For sure if you want the best high def sound possible you should rely on a free standing speaker that is in an enclosure tuned exactly to the speaker. Ceiling speakers really aren't meant to be for the serious audiophile's primary speaker but rather for background music or surround channels. Plus the direction from above is not ideal for creating optimal sound field.
You should never have a speaker where there is free open space from the front of the speaker to the back. You will kill all of your bass becuase the low frequency will wrap around and cancel out when it hits the mirror image sine wave comming off the back of the speaker. Higher frequency is more directional and won't wrap around. Drywall will for the most part block that wrap around but adding a further sound dampening materials may help more if you want to push up the bass response. You may notice how bose speakers have a tube for the bass comming off the back of the speaker the length of which is designed to delay the sound output off the back long enough for the sine wave to be in sync which then amplifies the bass rather than canelling it.
The size and shape of the box as well as the material will change the sound as well. Also if it is packed with sound deadening insulation or not, how much of it and what material it is. There are very smart people working with complex computer modeling figuring out how to build speaker enclosures for specific cones/drivers. They also mainulpulate the crossovers and response at various frequencies to make the enclosure/speaker marriage work its best. Then these people get patents. Don't expect to do this on your own and match a high end free standing speaker.
There would be no way to put a box into a ceiling (with a round speaker) that wouldn't involve making a hole in the drywall that is bigger than the speaker and therefore require patch/float job. Potentially a square speaker could have a box that could be turned sideways and retrofitted without drywall issues. I guess you could also have a box that is multiple pieces which would fit through the hole and then be assembled after it is in the ceiling. That would be cumbersome but possible.
If you have attic above the speaker then you can just go up there and experiment with different situations. Of course open attic will not respond the same as the confined space in your ceiling. Things like truss construction vs dimensional lumber, 5/8 drywall vs 1/2 in, subfloor material above, presence of cross bracing, nearby light cans, and on and on will affect the sound.
You should never have a speaker where there is free open space from the front of the speaker to the back. You will kill all of your bass becuase the low frequency will wrap around and cancel out when it hits the mirror image sine wave comming off the back of the speaker. Higher frequency is more directional and won't wrap around. Drywall will for the most part block that wrap around but adding a further sound dampening materials may help more if you want to push up the bass response. You may notice how bose speakers have a tube for the bass comming off the back of the speaker the length of which is designed to delay the sound output off the back long enough for the sine wave to be in sync which then amplifies the bass rather than canelling it.
The size and shape of the box as well as the material will change the sound as well. Also if it is packed with sound deadening insulation or not, how much of it and what material it is. There are very smart people working with complex computer modeling figuring out how to build speaker enclosures for specific cones/drivers. They also mainulpulate the crossovers and response at various frequencies to make the enclosure/speaker marriage work its best. Then these people get patents. Don't expect to do this on your own and match a high end free standing speaker.
There would be no way to put a box into a ceiling (with a round speaker) that wouldn't involve making a hole in the drywall that is bigger than the speaker and therefore require patch/float job. Potentially a square speaker could have a box that could be turned sideways and retrofitted without drywall issues. I guess you could also have a box that is multiple pieces which would fit through the hole and then be assembled after it is in the ceiling. That would be cumbersome but possible.
If you have attic above the speaker then you can just go up there and experiment with different situations. Of course open attic will not respond the same as the confined space in your ceiling. Things like truss construction vs dimensional lumber, 5/8 drywall vs 1/2 in, subfloor material above, presence of cross bracing, nearby light cans, and on and on will affect the sound.
pete_c
Guru
During my first four years of college I had a friend who owned an independant stereo shop. He would give me the newest stuff to play with in the dormitory. I would typically use it for 1-2 months, sell it and get new stuff. One of the best turntables I had at the time was a Thorens. Another one that I am fond of was a Technics MKXX platter. The whole thing back then was keeping your vinyl spotless and using an audio technica needle (which cost as much as the platter sometimes). Cassette players were in their infancy. I had a Nakamichi Dragon. Great sound at the time. I believe I still have my first CD player (still being utilized). It's a Pansonic Technics and it has video outputs in addition to audio. At the time didn't know what to do with the video outputs and later noticed how popular VCD's were internationally. During college Friday afternoons folks would put their speakers in the windows facing out from our 20 story dormitory - play music loud.
Funny you mention Bose. I had a set of 901's in the 70's and they worked well for me. Before the Bose KLH and JBL. The thing I didn't like about them were optimal sound/placement of the speaker. Remember how I would show friends how the ports on the 901's could blow out matches. After the 901's went to Klipsch. I like the Klipsch Heresy's that I had. Finally in the 80's went to Stonehedge Voice of the Theater - Big 15" woofer with horn tweeter. Today keep it simple (high volume is not a necessity) so primary family room speakers are just JBL towers on each side of the media center. Bose center now replacing a JBL center. Powered subwoofer, external rear speakers and the new in ceiling speakers. Typically for music only the front two speakers are used. For movies all of them are used. When watching surround sound movies my wife always thinks many of the backround sounds are coming from the kitchen which to me is a good effect telling me the rear speakers are doing their job.
Funny you mention Bose. I had a set of 901's in the 70's and they worked well for me. Before the Bose KLH and JBL. The thing I didn't like about them were optimal sound/placement of the speaker. Remember how I would show friends how the ports on the 901's could blow out matches. After the 901's went to Klipsch. I like the Klipsch Heresy's that I had. Finally in the 80's went to Stonehedge Voice of the Theater - Big 15" woofer with horn tweeter. Today keep it simple (high volume is not a necessity) so primary family room speakers are just JBL towers on each side of the media center. Bose center now replacing a JBL center. Powered subwoofer, external rear speakers and the new in ceiling speakers. Typically for music only the front two speakers are used. For movies all of them are used. When watching surround sound movies my wife always thinks many of the backround sounds are coming from the kitchen which to me is a good effect telling me the rear speakers are doing their job.
Monk
Active Member
Well the 9th has come and they are STILL having issues - are they that big (or small) of an outfit that it takes this long to recover from a (rumored) security breach?
http://www.facebook.com/Monopricecom
With my tax refund I was planning on trying some of their speakers....
Ranger Digital
Active Member
MOST ceiling speakers are specifically designed to NOT have back boxes. I didnt believe it but its true. Did our own testing. Little if any difference found (expect when amp mode was ALL SPEAKERS, as opposed to other 5.1 or 7.1 surround modes).
Usually back boxes are for fire ratings only and all have VERY little affect on sound traveling to other rooms unless they are very expensive and/or are massive as mass usually reduces transmission.
also, someone posted something about a MIDDLE REAR on a 7.1? no such thing, that would be a 6.1.
Usually back boxes are for fire ratings only and all have VERY little affect on sound traveling to other rooms unless they are very expensive and/or are massive as mass usually reduces transmission.
also, someone posted something about a MIDDLE REAR on a 7.1? no such thing, that would be a 6.1.
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