Departing Kansas for points unknown (Toto in tow...)

[kahunapapa]

Hi All,

I just bought a new large-ish house with a Vista-20p and 8 hardwired door sensors, 2 motion detectors, and *nothing* else... including no monitored smoke detectors, remotes, etc.

Two days ago, I didn't even know what a Vista is, but now... hehehe... I'm thinking of swapping that out for something that is more "automation enabled." Buzzwords like ELK, UPB, Cinemar and Promixis are running around my brain. And, yes, I do have a headache... ;-)

So I'm looking for some advice to send me in the "right" direction.

Here are the things I know I need:

o About 6 reliable wireless fire alarms
o Keypads in the master bedroom & mud room
o Keychain-style remote to enable/disable alarm and open garage door
o Enable 4 indoor hallway and 8 outdoor flood lights from remote
o System monitored by NextAlarm using their Internet VOIP adapter
o Web access to enable/disable alarm and check status

Here are the things I think I want:

o 7" or 8" color touch screen in Master bedroom
o See door and garage door status on touch screen
o Enable/disable alarm and lights from touch screen
o Water detectors in crawlspaces & sensor on main line

And somewhere down the road:

o Control thermostats & blinds
o Monitor electrical use & graph it
o Display weather on touchscreen in the "mud room"

I'm technically inclined so lots of DIY doesn't scare me. The Minister of the Interior, on the other hand, is enthusiastic but needs something foolproof and simple.

My budget is $2500-$3000. I know how to do some of the above using the Ademco / Vista technology but it seems like that will run out of steam after a bit. I feel I'm kind of lucky in a way because I can switch to a more unified approach now without throwing away too much (i.e. only toss the V20p board/keypads).

I'm thinking ELK M1 Gold -- but, is the ELK-TS071 the right way to go for the touchscreens or... ?

Are the ELK wireless smoke alarms as reliable & sophisticated as the Vista ones?

Any suggestions on other systems to consider? Is there anything even more "forward looking" than the ELK M1?

Thanks!!!

Dan

 

[Neurorad]

I was in the same position as you about a year ago, wanting to replace my aging alarm.

A few pointers:
You'll end up spending way more than you want.

Put the time in and search, search, search.

Beware of Scope Creep - you'll realize you'll want to do a lot more, so try to keep it focused, 1-2 projects at a time.

Take your time, be patient. As DJ Lance Rock says, "Don't stop, don't give up."

But maybe you shouldn't listen to me - I still haven't bought my alarm yet. BUT the first enclosure is hung, the distributed audio system has been purchased, I installed the basement -> attic conduit, I met with a DIY-friendly custom installer yesterday (Lutron lighting), and I'm back to being uncertain about Elk vs. HAI (Elk alarm system is designed, and in my AO shopping cart, but now considering Lutron HomeWorks which isn't Elk-friendly).

But honestly, it's become my main hobby, and it's fun.

Welcome to CT.

Edit - are you in Hawaii? There's a Hawaiin integrator named BigPapa floating around here somewhere...

 

[Rupp]

HomeSeer has a Vista alarm plugin available here:
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t...=vista+security

You could download a 30 day trial of HomeSeer and give it a test to see if this alarm is worth keeping and the automation engine is there for the use as well. You can also try out the new HSTouch touch screen design software. It's the easiest to use that I've tested and I've tested a few.

 

[electron]

Welcome to CT!

I wouldn't throw out the Vista unit, just put it up for sale in the Classifieds forum once you are a regular member. The Elk M1 is definitely a very popular platform and will do everything you want and more. The same can be said for the HAI OmniPro II. The one thing to keep in mind is that both of these units are a security system first, home automation controller second.

Don't hesitate to ask any questions you have, no matter how simple you think they might be. Your requirements are similar to what many people are already doing here, so you definitely found the right place

 

[sic0048]

Dan,

There are basically two routes to go for a complete system like you want. One is to look at the automation/alarm packages out there like the ELK M1Gold or the HAI OmniPro. These systems are much more expensive than an alarm only system, but they also do a lot more. Adding things like blind control, thermostat control, etc should be relatively easy.

The second route to go is to look at some sort of automation system that can tie into your alarm. You could still use an ELK or HAI system, but the automation system would allow more flexability in what you control. The ELK and HAI have decent automation, but they are certainly limited in the functions they offer. You don't have to use an ELK or HAI however. You could get an alarm only system (like a GE CADDIX) and simply tie it into your automation system.

Some automation system options include CQC (which I use), Homeseer, vCrib, Premise, etc. Some cost money (like CQC and Homeseer) while others may be free (Premise, and perhaps vCrib still). These are all software based control systems where you need a home computer running as the main brain. You can get hardware systems as well, but they tend to be proprietary and generally require a professional to install.

So there are a couple of ideas to think about. Be sure to read and research a lot and ask any questions you may have.

 

[signal15]

Personally, I don't like the ELK touchscreen. It looks dated, and it's very expensive for what it does. Get yourself some refurb iPod Touches and install eKeypad on them. They have more functionality and they are portable. And it will cost you WAY less money. You could probably get 8 of them for the price of one ELK touchscreen.

 

[kahunapapa]

Wow - thanks for all the great & quick advice!

Here's my current thinking (and, yes, my headache is gone but my brain is still a bit stunned from reading 200 web pages)...

I'd like to keep a "low level" monitoring system for perimeter, motion, fire and flood detection. The Vista 20p will do this well so I might as well keep it. It will interface to NextAlarm via their ABN Broadband adapter.

I'll build out a "high level" automation system that interfaces to the low level system, but can fail without serious consequences.

The OMNIPro and ELK systems are a generation beyond the Vista series. Much more advanced than the V20p but are expensive and unnecessary systems since I'm DIY and can leap straight to third-generation PC-based automation.

I don't need a pre-installed PC-based home automation controller (ala the the HomeSeer HomeTroller / PRO-100) - they are turnkey and too expensive for my budget. A DELL Studio Hybrid will do nicely and are $650 and up refurbished.

For touchscreen panels, I can use a generic Windows CE tablet for $200 and up.

There are Windows XPe-based touchscreens but they are a lot (!) more expensive. I'd like to use a Windows "netbook"-class touchscreen PC but I couldn't find any that can wall mount so that will have to wait. The SilverPac SilverFrame (WinCE-based "picture frame") looks great but no price or availability have been announced.

There are lots of nice iPhone/iTouch alarm and automation apps. My wife and I have iPhones so I'll definitely some of these for my "roaming" controllers.

So, I'm left with three approaches for my "high level" home automation system: Premise, Charmed Quark / CQC, and HomeSeer.

I'm ruling out Premise because, even tho it's free and has lots of drivers/interfaces plus an XML descriptor format, it is only available in binary form. Shame on Motorola for killing a nice product and then failing to OpenSource it. (And please correct me if I'm wrong about this!).

I love the programming-language like feel of CQC. However, it appears to have fewer drivers (etc.) than HomeSeer and, specifically, won't interface to the Vista 20p.

So, I'm left with HomeSeer -- which seems like a nice choice. It lets me easily create DIY Windows CE-based interfaces for you-know-who. It also can interface to the Vista via the NuTech AD2USB adapter and the Vista alarm plugin that Rupp mentioned.

Any thoughts or additions? New directions I should look?

Dan

p.s. Neurorad - Sorry to say I'm not in Hawaii. Just yer typical Palo Alto / Silicon Valley brat preparing to move to the new home in Portland.

p.p.s. Anyone else notice that the HomeSeer wiki (on their web site, not here) has been hit by a spambot? I'd never seen that happen before!

 

[Steve]

Welcome to the forums Dan. Concerning your choice of software package - I would not rush into that decision. There are several other things to consider and then I would evaluate at least your top pick, if not top 2.

Maybe I'm biased toward CQC but I would ask/consider these things before I chose HS over CQC.

• Do you have any plans or thoughts whatsoever to include media browsing type activity in your system? If yes, you really should reconsider CQC.
• CQC imho has a much more mature GUI designer. CQC was built around touchscreen design whereas HSTouch is an add on to HS.
• I would not choose a package based on 1 specific driver or necessarily even which has more out of the box. Consider that all CQC drivers are free whereas most HS drivers are paid. If it came down to say you like CQC better but it was missing one driver, like Vista 20, well, you could always either write or get someone to write the driver for you, especially Vista does not seem like it would be too complex.

Don't get me wrong, not trying to knock Homeseer, its a nice product, especially if looking strictly at automation. But if you consider GUI design, media capabilities, etc CQC may deserve a closer look.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I was asked to comment on these questions:

1) Anyone has created a driver / interface module for the NuTech AD2USB product or any other way to connect to a Vista 20p?

Not that I know of. But there are various mercenary driver writers hanging around on the forums who would probably take it on for a reasonable fee. The fee is usually pretty reasonable because the driver will be added to the list of freely available drivers, and since we don't charge for drivers there's not so much territoriality about them.

Though you might decide in the end that the difference between that and an Elk isn't worth arguing over and just get the Elk, I dunno.

2) Can I use CQC to build an interface that runs on a Windows CE-based touchscreen panel?

Sure. We have a system called RIVA (Remote Interface Viewer Architcture) which actually does all the heavy lifting on the back end so that you can run a simple client on these smaller devices. There is a .Net based RIVA client. If it's a really old device there may be compatibility issues, which I'm not advanced enough on the subject to speak to. But you can ask about it on the forum.

 

[123]

...I'm ruling out Premise because, even tho it's free and has lots of drivers/interfaces plus an XML descriptor format, it is only available in binary form. Shame on Motorola for killing a nice product and then failing to OpenSource it. (And please correct me if I'm wrong about this!).

It is a shame that Premise was shelved but kudos to Motorola for releasing the final version for free. Not all software products enjoy a 'productive retirement'.

"Only available in binary form" is essentially how all commercial software is released. If Premise were bug-ridden then access to its source-code would be a critical requirement. On the contrary, Premise is very stable and its advanced architecture makes it extensible.

Premise uses a very different technique for generating a user-interface. It saves you time because it builds itself (each Home Automation object has a predefined user-interface) but you don't have much say in how things are organized. It can be customized but if you like inventing your own touchscreen interfaces, then you'll need to look elsewhere.

 

[Rupp]

If you are a user that likes to write scripts or plugins the HomeSeer SDK is free and allows you to write any script and or plugin in visual basic or vb.net to interface to just about any device your can imagine.

 

[signal15]

Where do you even download Premise? Their original website is gone, and I cannot find a download link anywhere. Does anyone have the email address of the people at Motorola that were involved with it? It's been a couple of years since they abandoned it, it might be worth attempting to get them to release the source code for it.

 

[123]

Where do you even download Premise? Their original website is gone, and I cannot find a download link anywhere ...

"Gone but not forgotten."

The download link is posted in Cocoontech's Premise Wiki: http://www.cocoontech.com/wiki/Premise.
You can also go directly to the downloads area: http://www.premisesystems.net/downloads/

I never found a contact at Motorola who knew anything about Premise. There is someone registered here as "PremiseSystems" who had helped to restore the original Premise Support forum (the web-site had been shut down) ... you could try sending a PM.