Drain your water heaters

I just became aware of a problem that it looks like I have with my water heater. There was a dip tube breakdown problem with water heaters that were mfd in the early 90's. The dip tube disintigrates and will result in a short hot water supply and white chips being collected by your faucet screens.

I thought that I had a buildup problem but it sounds now like what I have is this dip tube problem. Sounds like I should be able to replace the dip tube and flush the system well and I should be back on track.

I'm going to tackle the tube replacement/flushing this weekend. I'll post on how it goes. The worst part is that the original installer soldered all the fittings in place. I'm going to try and change the fittings to flexable screw on type fittings so that access to the dip tube will be easier if I ever have to go there again. Sweating copper is always so much fun!

Curt
 
I've got an oil burner that currently provides hot water heating through a coil. I was planning on changing this to something more efficient.

I spoke to someone who referred to a hot water storage system (or something like that, not a hot water tank as it was supposed to be more efficient). I had also heard about the tankless approaches.

Is there any reason not to go tankless? While Rustytek had a unit at each location, can you centrally locate a master unit (the way the house is laid out, I don't have a distance issue as everything is essentially above the current burner (within 30' about). I did not think about it until now, but I guess I know why the bathrooms are on that side of the house...
 
Mike,

The only think I can see that you need to be careful about when buying a whole house system is that you may live in a climate where the water entering your house is very cold. The tankless systems work by running the water over top of these really hot elements and that means the water can only be heated at a certain rate. So if you have really cold water coming in you may only get warm water coming out. But if you live in a climate that has water that is not very cold then you would probably be fine with a tankless system.

The heaters that I have been looking at are electrical and draw a lot of current when in use. So you probably won't be saving any money on your water bill unless you go on vacation.

The main reason I wanted a tankless is because I want to free up the closet space under my stairs so I can make it into a wiring closet. The heater sits right in the middle of the door which is at the highest end of the stairs. All that space under the stairs is being wasted and living in a townhouse space is already limited. The heaters I see in HomeDepot and Lowes are all gas powered and I don't have gas and am not allowed to have propane tanks because of HAO regulations. I was thinking that I could put a whole house system in and maybe put an additional point of use system in the bathroom so we never have to take cold showers. I can deal with warm water everywhere else in the house. But that plan is too expensive and would require me to run electrical circuits to the bath and that would be a PITA.

So I am sticking with the tank for now. I will probably go tankless either when my heater really fails and is not fixable or if I move into my dream home.
 
I am going to do a little research on my own, but I have been hearing about a new generation of tankless systems that use microwaves.

Any opinions on this tech?

Vaughn
 
ver0776 said:
I am going to do a little research on my own, but I have been hearing about a new generation of tankless systems that use microwaves.
I don't know anything about them, but would this mean that every time you took a shower your wireless network and cordless phones would have problems?
 
Yes, it looks like that same news release is the dominate peice of info. So I guess it is still a little early topass judgement on them.

It looks like they save some custom duct work and may simply make tankless heaters available to more types of houses that have gas or electrical limitations.

Vaughn
 
I had wondered about the efficiency (I live in NY) when it was cold, as frankly I don't know what the temperature of the water is when coming into the house.

One of the ones I saw was this one:

http://www.gotankless.com/

The power draw (60, 70, 80 amp circuits do raise an eyebrow) was interesting, but it is still projected to cut costs in half (of course the assumptions need to be reviewed on how that was calculated).

Perhaps some automation, and an efficient 'traditional' unit is in order. I really noticed the coil issue during the summer (as it would be keeping water hot by running the burner). By separating it I can better integrate it and run it only when needed.

EDIT: I just noticed this, and since I don't want to run units to every faucet, I'm convinced against it (for my current situation at least):

A tankless water heater is not an 'instant water heater'. It will not reduce the time it takes for the hot water to reach your point of use. The only way to do this is to install the S.E.T.S. Tankless Water Heater closer to the point of use. However, if this is your goal, the size of the S.E.T.S. Tankless Water Heater allows it to be installed almost anywhere.
 
(ver0776 @ Jan 13 2006, 10:57 AM)
I am going to do a little research on my own, but I have been hearing about a new generation of tankless systems that use microwaves.
I don't know anything about them, but would this mean that every time you took a shower your wireless network and cordless phones would have problems?
No, it means you can reheat lunch while taking a shower without the oven. ;)
 
The largest model in that link above uses 120amps. My service is only 200amps. If you think about it for a second your dryer requires a 30amp circuit and your washer 20amps. So if you are washing clothes and drying others at the same time which is not un common then you can be using 170amp at one time. Throw in a few lights and maybe the oven and you are screwed. I am starting to wonder if that thing actually draws 120amps. Most old homes only have 100amp services. Even the smallest point of use ones are 50amps. So at this point in time electrical whole house water heaters don't seem pratical at all.

Lets do some quick math. Say you take a shower and it takes 15 minutes. Using 240 volts at 120 amps you get 28800watts of power being used or 28.8Kw/Hour. So that 25 minute shower just took you 7.2Kw-hours. At my current electrical rate which is $0.356/kwhr that shower would cost about $9.74. Times that by however many people are in your house and it just does not seem like you would save money. But I am thinking that you are not using all 120amps during that shower. I am going to try and contact some companies and see if we can't get someone to answer some of the questions we have about these heaters.
 
Hum.. I'm confused. The 15 minute shower turned into a 25 minute shower. Then that turned into 7.2Kw-hours at a cost of $9.74 I think is should be 7.2 X .356 = $2.5632
 
hello everyone,

As a point of honest disclosure, let me first say that I work for a dealer of the SETS tankless water heater that is currently being discussed. I thought I might be able to offer some assistance.

First, the SETS tankless water heater is NOT a full on/full off appliance (unlike soem other brands). In other words, it does not automatically draw its maximum output power when it is on. The first element generally remains at full power, and power is modulated to the remaining element(s) to adjust the temperature setting to the desired level as controlled by the user, and in accordance with flow rate. So, if you are demanding a small flow of water say at a bathroom sink, the unit will draw far less power than if you are running a shower or other higher flow application. The Model 240, which is generally the largest unit we use for residential, runs at a maximum of 99 amps (120 amp breaker required in most regions), which will provide about 3 GPM of shower or bath temperature water in a colder climate.

Electicity prices vary considerably from region to region, however, the average cost per KW/hr is far less than the 35 cents listed by one poster. In fact, most householders will pay between $0.08 and $0.15 for electricity consumed.

So, based on the $0.15 per KW HR, running the Model 240 (24 KW) on FULL power for an hour would cost about $3.60, or $0.06 per minute. The actual cost will be less for most applications since the unit will rarely need to run on its maximum power setting, especially for low flow rate applications.

Now, let's say for a moment that you are indeed one of the unlucky minority that do pay more than $0.25 per KW/hr for electricity consumption. Yes, it will certainly cost more to operate a tankless water heater than my figures above(
$0.25 x 24 = $6 per hour or about $0.10 per minute -based on full power) however, the cost of operating your conventional water heater is equally magnified. The thermal heat loss of a traditional tank during standby (when you are not demanding hot water) generally equates to about 30% for an average family of 4 with typicaly hot water usage patterns - even more for smaller families or for casual-use recreational properties, etc. The tankless will reduce the standby loss to zero. In fact, in areas where electricity is most expensive, tankless water heating offers the highest $ value of annual savings and fastest payback on investment.

Tankless water heaters are best used for back to back hot water demands, although they will generally provide enough hot water for one large demand and one smaller demand at the same time (with a properly sized model). We would note\ generally recommend them for running multiple showers or other large demands at the same time - fortunately, for most households, simultanoeous showering is rare and adaptign to the use of hot water on a back to back basis is well worth the other benefits of using a tankless water heater.

Let me know if you have any questions,
 
This other combines the tankless system and the microwave system posted in November.

This is a british company and does not say where to buy, but at the end of this page it has a form for requesting information if you want to buy.
 
e-tankless,

Welcome to CocoonTech, and thanks for the explaination.

Feel free to stick around, but be warned, there are several different viruses floating around and all are very addictive. There's the Home Automation virus, the Home Theater virus, the Rupp virus, etc..... ;)
 
How about using one of these scary point of use heaters? I like the knife switch used to turn it on, and the electrical tape on the cord.

Kenny
 

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