ELK and RCS Zone Controller
- Thread starter noshali
- Start date
I am not exactly sure what that post means smarty........
So now the Elk can talk to the RCS Zone Controller directly? Without having to go through the thermostats?
If this is true, then you should be able to use a simple wall display instead of the fancy rcs thermostats......right?
So now the Elk can talk to the RCS Zone Controller directly? Without having to go through the thermostats?
If this is true, then you should be able to use a simple wall display instead of the fancy rcs thermostats......right?
Black Magic
Member
Currently the Elk M1 can not control an RCS Zone Control system that uses the ZCVx series (RS485 version) controller and the Wall Display Units. Based on the email it seems that if you connect this zone controller to the Elk, it will is it as one addressable thermostat. If the Elk issues setback points, all thermostats will receive the commands.
The only way to use the RCS Zone Control System is to get the ZCx (non RS485 version) zone controller and the TRx thermostats (wall display unit + controller). You'll have to wire each thermostat in series to the M1XSP. This is a more expensive route becase each TRx thermostat is about $100 more than just the wall display unit. This approach also provides less control of the HVAC system through the Elk.
Elk is aware of this issue and has added it to their "needs investigation" list. They will determine the feasibility of adding control of the zone controller. Then they will determine if making such a change is worthwhile in regards to time and cost. If everything (technical and businesswise) checks out, we may see this feature added.
I've been spending quite a bit of time researching all this HVAC automation stuff. These zone controllers seem like pretty straightforward event driven state machines. The Elk rule based automation language is essentially the same thing. I've been investigating forgoing the Zone Controller and just using the Elk Temperature Sensors and one RSC TRx Thermostat. The Elk M1 would essentially beome the zone controller and it would use the Temperature sensors instead of thermostats for each zone. The TRx Thermostat would be used to control the HVAC system.
This approach would be drastically cheaper and more configurable than anything else I've come across. It would just require more time to code out the rules in the M1. I'd have to keep it lightweight to not consume all the memory on the M1. At this point, I'm not 100% sure that the M1 language will allow me to do this. This project will take some time, but could save me a lot of money.
If I were to code this up would people be willing to run this setup on their M1? The more people that run this code, the quicker the bugs can be identified and fix.
The only way to use the RCS Zone Control System is to get the ZCx (non RS485 version) zone controller and the TRx thermostats (wall display unit + controller). You'll have to wire each thermostat in series to the M1XSP. This is a more expensive route becase each TRx thermostat is about $100 more than just the wall display unit. This approach also provides less control of the HVAC system through the Elk.
Elk is aware of this issue and has added it to their "needs investigation" list. They will determine the feasibility of adding control of the zone controller. Then they will determine if making such a change is worthwhile in regards to time and cost. If everything (technical and businesswise) checks out, we may see this feature added.
I've been spending quite a bit of time researching all this HVAC automation stuff. These zone controllers seem like pretty straightforward event driven state machines. The Elk rule based automation language is essentially the same thing. I've been investigating forgoing the Zone Controller and just using the Elk Temperature Sensors and one RSC TRx Thermostat. The Elk M1 would essentially beome the zone controller and it would use the Temperature sensors instead of thermostats for each zone. The TRx Thermostat would be used to control the HVAC system.
This approach would be drastically cheaper and more configurable than anything else I've come across. It would just require more time to code out the rules in the M1. I'd have to keep it lightweight to not consume all the memory on the M1. At this point, I'm not 100% sure that the M1 language will allow me to do this. This project will take some time, but could save me a lot of money.
If I were to code this up would people be willing to run this setup on their M1? The more people that run this code, the quicker the bugs can be identified and fix.
Black magic:
If you could get that system to work, I would most certainly run it!
I have a few questions though:
1) What would control the dampers? I have a 4 zone setup, so each damper needs to be controlled separately.
2) Where would the 1 thermostat be located?
BTW, check your pm!
If you could get that system to work, I would most certainly run it!
I have a few questions though:
1) What would control the dampers? I have a 4 zone setup, so each damper needs to be controlled separately.
2) Where would the 1 thermostat be located?
BTW, check your pm!
Black Magic,
I CANNOT say for sure, but I believe (and hope) you may be mistaken. I have not yet installed these (so I don't know for sure).
Based on my LAST/LATEST e-mail from Brad Weeks, the ZCV series zone controller and the lower cost TS series "wall display units" should indeed work with the Elk.
Note that Brad said Elk ORIGINALLY had some dated documentation.
"ELK had older documentation concerning the RCS Zone Control Units. RSC has made changes to the addressing scheme for their Zone Control Units which allows for individual addressing of thermostats. These new changes allows the M1 to receive and transmit information to individual thermostats"
Brad then went on to cut and past information from the ZCV Instruction manual that made direct reference to using the TS (lower dollar) wall display units.
Spanky,
Can you touch base with Brad and verify that the TS series (cheaper) wall display units will work with the ZCV zone controller and the M1??? A final word is needed.
I CANNOT say for sure, but I believe (and hope) you may be mistaken. I have not yet installed these (so I don't know for sure).
Based on my LAST/LATEST e-mail from Brad Weeks, the ZCV series zone controller and the lower cost TS series "wall display units" should indeed work with the Elk.
Note that Brad said Elk ORIGINALLY had some dated documentation.
"ELK had older documentation concerning the RCS Zone Control Units. RSC has made changes to the addressing scheme for their Zone Control Units which allows for individual addressing of thermostats. These new changes allows the M1 to receive and transmit information to individual thermostats"
Brad then went on to cut and past information from the ZCV Instruction manual that made direct reference to using the TS (lower dollar) wall display units.
Spanky,
Can you touch base with Brad and verify that the TS series (cheaper) wall display units will work with the ZCV zone controller and the M1??? A final word is needed.
Black Magic
Member
I hope it works out as well. My interpretation is based on the email you posted and the configuration that houstonj described. I could be mistaken, but there were some things that made me question the setup.Smarty said:
Black Magic
Member
1) We should be able to use the Elk M1RB relay board with a 24 VAC transformer. Check out the manual for an example of the connection. The 2 wire connection should be the same going to the damper.ph0n33z said:
2) You could locate it in one zone or whereever you wanted. The Elk would just use it to translate heat/cool command to the HVAC unit. If you used it in one of the zone, you could save money on a temperature sensor for that zone.
Thread Update: It WORKS!!!
I have just finished the benchtop wiring of one RCS TR40 Tstat, one RCS ZCV4 zone controller (with one RCS TS 40 display and one RCS TS16 display - the cheaper display units).
My new house will have one AC/Heat unit that is unzoned (the TR40), and one AC/Heat unit that will have 2 zones using the ZCV zone controller, a TS40 Wall Diplay Unit "WDU" and a TS16 WDU. An additional zone may be added in future (hence the 4 zone board).
I set up the TR40 to be network address #3. Network address 1 and 2 were from the first two zones of the ZCV4. After wiring these up to the M1XSP serial expander, I set up tasks and rules to change the individual set-points off all three "areas/Tstats". I have verified that the ELK can indeed send setpoint information to the TR40 (that was never in question) AND it can set different set-point information to each individual zone on the ZCV zone controller. This is verified by the WDU's.
Hope this helps someone else.......
I have just finished the benchtop wiring of one RCS TR40 Tstat, one RCS ZCV4 zone controller (with one RCS TS 40 display and one RCS TS16 display - the cheaper display units).
My new house will have one AC/Heat unit that is unzoned (the TR40), and one AC/Heat unit that will have 2 zones using the ZCV zone controller, a TS40 Wall Diplay Unit "WDU" and a TS16 WDU. An additional zone may be added in future (hence the 4 zone board).
I set up the TR40 to be network address #3. Network address 1 and 2 were from the first two zones of the ZCV4. After wiring these up to the M1XSP serial expander, I set up tasks and rules to change the individual set-points off all three "areas/Tstats". I have verified that the ELK can indeed send setpoint information to the TR40 (that was never in question) AND it can set different set-point information to each individual zone on the ZCV zone controller. This is verified by the WDU's.
Hope this helps someone else.......
oh man.........
Let me see if I understand this first.
You are saying that we can use the RCS ZCV4 along with the cheaper rcs tstats (just the wall display units) and the m1 talks through the zone controller to each tstat as if it was not even there?
EDIT: How do you have this wired? Tstats to the zone controller, then the zone controller to the elk?
Let me see if I understand this first.
You are saying that we can use the RCS ZCV4 along with the cheaper rcs tstats (just the wall display units) and the m1 talks through the zone controller to each tstat as if it was not even there?
EDIT: How do you have this wired? Tstats to the zone controller, then the zone controller to the elk?
Yep that's it. You CAN use the ZCV series zone controller and the CHEAPER WDU's and the M1 can send and recieve information from each individual zone (WDU) on the ZCV controller.
As for the wiring, each WDU is wiried back to the zone controller board as RCS describes. The RS485 output from the zone controller (3 wires:Ground, D+, & D-) is connected to the M1XSP data terminals.
In my case (where I have 1 zone control board and one TR40), I have run boths sets of "Ground, D+, and D-" back to the M1XSP and it WORKS.
Hope this helps.
As for the wiring, each WDU is wiried back to the zone controller board as RCS describes. The RS485 output from the zone controller (3 wires:Ground, D+, & D-) is connected to the M1XSP data terminals.
In my case (where I have 1 zone control board and one TR40), I have run boths sets of "Ground, D+, and D-" back to the M1XSP and it WORKS.
Hope this helps.
I too am looking at installing an RCS ZCV4 and TS40 tstats. Has anyone used a "leaving air temperature" sensor (LAT6 according to the manual) with the ZCV4? I can't find the sensor for sale anywhere on-line and RCS doesn't even list the sensor in their catalog. I know how discharge air temperature sensors are supposed to work on other brand zone controllers, but RCS doesn't describe how it functions in the ZCV4 manual. Can anyone confirm that the sensor data (if present) is used by the ZCV4?
Not sure what your going for here.....
As I understand it (or maybe not....
), the Tstat in the zoned room is the feedback that the zone controller uses.
Even if you have another temperture sensor at the "discharge" (discharge of exactly what by the way), I don't think the zone controller has a way to "see and act" upon this sensor data.
Please give us more details.....
As I understand it (or maybe not....
), the Tstat in the zoned room is the feedback that the zone controller uses.Even if you have another temperture sensor at the "discharge" (discharge of exactly what by the way), I don't think the zone controller has a way to "see and act" upon this sensor data.
Please give us more details.....
Yes, more details are always helpful....
I will be using a 2 stage heat pump connected to a RCS ZCV4. The ZCV4 will be controlling 4 zones. My concern is that when only 1 zone is calling for heating/cooling, the air handler will be trying to push too much air into only one zone. The back pressure in ducting will be harmful to the air handler and possibly ducting. This is a common scenario and one common solution is to install a barometric bypass damper that will automatically open up when the pressure becomes too high and shunt air from the supply plenum back into the return plenum. Unfortunately when the bypass damper is open, the air handler coils can become over heated/cooled and the air handler can either ice-up or overheat. To prevent the ice-up/overheating conditions, many zone controllers (e.g. Honeywell TotalZone and Robert Shaw SlimZOne Deluxe) use a "discharge air temperature" sensor to measure the temperature of the air in the supply plenum. If the air gets too hot or too cold, the heat pump compressor(s) will be turned off until the temperature returns to a safe value again.
Looking at the RCS ZCV4 "INSTALLATION AND OPERATION MANUAL", I see a nice wiring diagram (on the last page of the manual) that shows a "leaving air temperature" sensor connected to the ZCV4. I'm guessing that this sensor is the same as what the other manufacturers are calling a "discharge air temperature" sensor. The manual even gives a part number for the sensor - "LAT6". The problem is that I can't find the LAT6 sensor for sale on-line nor is it mentioned in the text of the manual.
The RCS ZCV4 is attractive because it and the RCS TS40/TS16 tstats appear to be the least expensive zone controller and tstat solution that interfaces to the Elk M1. If I use one of the other zone controllers I mentioned above, I would have to use more expensive tstats (e.g RCS TR40/TR16).
I'm hoping that someone has been down this path before, found a source for the LAT6, and verified that the ZCV4 actually uses the data from the sensor to prevent icing and overheating.
Thanks.
I will be using a 2 stage heat pump connected to a RCS ZCV4. The ZCV4 will be controlling 4 zones. My concern is that when only 1 zone is calling for heating/cooling, the air handler will be trying to push too much air into only one zone. The back pressure in ducting will be harmful to the air handler and possibly ducting. This is a common scenario and one common solution is to install a barometric bypass damper that will automatically open up when the pressure becomes too high and shunt air from the supply plenum back into the return plenum. Unfortunately when the bypass damper is open, the air handler coils can become over heated/cooled and the air handler can either ice-up or overheat. To prevent the ice-up/overheating conditions, many zone controllers (e.g. Honeywell TotalZone and Robert Shaw SlimZOne Deluxe) use a "discharge air temperature" sensor to measure the temperature of the air in the supply plenum. If the air gets too hot or too cold, the heat pump compressor(s) will be turned off until the temperature returns to a safe value again.
Looking at the RCS ZCV4 "INSTALLATION AND OPERATION MANUAL", I see a nice wiring diagram (on the last page of the manual) that shows a "leaving air temperature" sensor connected to the ZCV4. I'm guessing that this sensor is the same as what the other manufacturers are calling a "discharge air temperature" sensor. The manual even gives a part number for the sensor - "LAT6". The problem is that I can't find the LAT6 sensor for sale on-line nor is it mentioned in the text of the manual.
The RCS ZCV4 is attractive because it and the RCS TS40/TS16 tstats appear to be the least expensive zone controller and tstat solution that interfaces to the Elk M1. If I use one of the other zone controllers I mentioned above, I would have to use more expensive tstats (e.g RCS TR40/TR16).
I'm hoping that someone has been down this path before, found a source for the LAT6, and verified that the ZCV4 actually uses the data from the sensor to prevent icing and overheating.
Thanks.
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