Embedded vs PC vs embedded PC for HA controller

[Timoh]

What are folks doing for HA control of "critical" systems in their homes?

When I got into HA about 5 years ago, I decided to put all critical control on embedded systems and moved in the direction of the Ocelot. Tied into my Caddx panel, it does what I want it to do and is very robust with lighting, IR and some basic IO control.

But lately I've been frustrated about the limitations of embedded controllers. (I know this is by design.) By limitations, I mean support for new ways of doing things. So for the Ocelot, I still have to use x10, no Insteon/zwave/upb. For IO, forget about 1-wir... Only extremely limited communication through string matching on the serial port. No ethernet....

On the PC side, I found they were too big and power hungry, complex, expensive, etc etc to do "menial" tasks such as basic x10, transmit IR, etc.

In the fall, last year I moved my entire PC HA platform to an XPe (XP embedded) system. Loaded my HA software on it and away I went. I only moved my old PC HA functions onto the "thin" XPe device. The device has been solid. Rock solid. No crashes, no issues, nothing. It's small maybe 6"x6" by a 2" high. No fans, and runs off a 12vdc supply.

Now I'm thinking about replacing my Ocelot with a similar system. XPe runs XP software, so it's possible to load apps/drivers for IR, Insteon, 1-wire, or anything else you can imagine. + The ability to add remove technologies as HA evolves. USB is there, serial is there, ethernet is there. No moving parts, solid state drives, relatively cheap.

So I'm curious as to what folks think about using embedded stable PCs instead of Ocelots Elks, HAIs.

Tim

 

[upstatemike]

The problem with most PC based automation software is that is does not talk to hardware periperals directly but rather to other full blown stand-alone systems. This means you do not have a central point of configuration but instead have to learn the programming interface for each individual system. Usually each system maintains its own database or device map so you are constantly working to keep eveything in sync...

Example: You use a security system or ocelot to provide hardwired inputs to your system. First you have to define the inputs on the host device. Then you have to import those devices into your PC system so it can define its own objects and variables. Then every time you change anything on the host system you have to jump through hoops to get the PC system in sync with the changes.

I would like to see an embedded PC system that directly supports peripheral hardware (such as weeder boards for inputs) with provision to do all required definition and configuration within the core PC app... define/change/program all in one interface.

The weakness of PC systems is not the limitation of the platform but the limitation of the various peripheral APIs they depend on.

 

[electron]

I have been experimenting with many embedded XP systems as well (mostly for multimedia players), and it's incredible how fast and reliable everything gets once you go this route. I will be migrating to embedded platforms myself once I have the time & resource. Definitely worth it.

 

[ckindt]

The problem with most PC based automation software is that is does not talk to hardware periperals directly but rather to other full blown stand-alone systems. This means you do not have a central point of configuration but instead have to learn the programming interface for each individual system...

...I would like to see an embedded PC system that directly supports peripheral hardware (such as weeder boards for inputs) with provision to do all required definition and configuration within the core PC app... define/change/program all in one interface.

This is precisely the advantage of a programmable logic control system. You can do anything with any type of I/O for security and automation.

I recommend a PLC for the central brains. In essence, any of the common controllers many use on these boards are PLCs, but proprietary ones at that with very limited scalability and limited I/O support. However, for adding different platforms, there is some decent support for additional comm drivers so you don't have to write your own.

 

[DavidL]

The problem with most PC based automation software is that is does not talk to hardware periperals directly but rather to other full blown stand-alone systems. This means you do not have a central point of configuration but instead have to learn the programming interface for each individual system. Usually each system maintains its own database or device map so you are constantly working to keep eveything in sync...

Example: You use a security system or ocelot to provide hardwired inputs to your system. First you have to define the inputs on the host device. Then you have to import those devices into your PC system so it can define its own objects and variables. Then every time you change anything on the host system you have to jump through hoops to get the PC system in sync with the changes.

I would like to see an embedded PC system that directly supports peripheral hardware (such as weeder boards for inputs) with provision to do all required definition and configuration within the core PC app... define/change/program all in one interface.

The weakness of PC systems is not the limitation of the platform but the limitation of the various peripheral APIs they depend on.

Mike, MainLobby does support the weedertech analog and digital boards directly. And runs on XPe fine too.

 

[upstatemike]

Mike, MainLobby does support the weedertech analog and digital boards directly. And runs on XPe fine too.

Good to know! We really need to get a Controller Platform comparison table put together one of these days so that details like this are easier to spot. I would like to see MainLobby on a Fanless XPe System vs Homeseer on a Hometroller vs Stargate+Caddx vs OmniPro II vs Elk M1+ISY99i vs etc, etc.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Convergent Living runs on a fanless linux embedded setup. Course you have to use THEIR units. But works like a champ. and very flexible.

 

[IVB]

The problem with most PC based automation software is that is does not talk to hardware periperals directly but rather to other full blown stand-alone systems. This means you do not have a central point of configuration but instead have to learn the programming interface for each individual system. Usually each system maintains its own database or device map so you are constantly working to keep eveything in sync...

I know you said "most", but I'm pretty sure the nearly 200 devices and device families directly supported by CQC would be at least one exception to that statement. And frankly, the cause for my ever-increasing "investment" in HA stuff. It's no secret that I do all my stuff directly through CQC, and currently relegate the Elk to mostly safety&security-only (motion and door, although there is water leak detection). I do that precisely for the reason you speak of - I know the CQC events engine pretty well, why in gods name would I want to learn something different? I have <12 Elk rules, and if I moved the maglocks to directly controlled by CQC via something like the Carls Relay device, I could get down to <5.

However, my angst is the fact that many of these interfaces are either serial or USB. Even the weedertech is an RS232 device. For those of us with out-of-control HA scope creep, you end up with quite the list. I'd like to get to an XPe system, but I need to figure out how to drive all these from a low-power box. I'm not sure what the performance would be with a 32way external serial box that has it's own power would be.
Q1) If I move everything to a single, low-power megaserver on XPe, can 20 devices really communicate over a single USB bottleneck that quickly?
Q2) Most uATX or mATX mobo's only have 2 USB connections on them. If I get an external serial expander, i'd have 3 USB devices, so i'm already 1 over with no room for growth.
Q3) How the hell do I wire 20 serial connections and 3 USB connections with any hint of wiring cleanliness? You've seen my wiring abilities...

Currently used: (they're not currently all on one server, but my $320/month electric bills have me moving that way ideally by the end of 2008, and an XPe one at that)
COM1 - DirecTV STB #1
COM2 - DirecTV STB #2
COM3 - Denon 3805
COM4 - Aprilaire 8870 HVAC
COM5 - Polk XRt12 XM tuner
COM6 - IRMan
COM7 - RAIN8net irrigation
COM8 - NuVo Concerto
COM9 - CheaperRFID
COM10 - CallerID Modem (currently PCI, but if I go XPe I'd need an external one)
COM11 - iScan HD scaler
COM12 - Sony 777ES DVD Mega-changer
COM13 - QKits 1wire Temp Sensors

USB1 - zWave
USB2 - USBUIRT

Ethernet1: Elk
Ethernet2: MVP

Coming As Soon As Wife Doesn't Kick my a$$:
COM14 - RS232 controllable FM tuner (ie, parasound zTuner or Rotel 1080)
COM15 - Panasonic Plasma for F/R
COM16 - Panasonic Plasma for MBR
COM17 - Video Matrix Switcher
COM18 - Denon 2105 for MBR digital audio decoder
COM19 - BluRay/HD-DVD megachanger once they're less than $30K
COM20 - Weather Station

Ethernet3: HDExtender #1
Ethernet4: HDExtender #2

Hell, I didn't even mention the desired serial controlled 17" LCD TVs in the Kitchen and kids B/R, mainly cuz the wife would seriously kick my ass. But someday...

Of course, all this assumes no one invents anything else over the next 1-3 years that's an RS232 or USB device that I simply must have. I clearly don't have that good a track record with self-discipline

 

[upstatemike]

I think the answer is RS232 ove IP with a device such as the one Elk offers. No ports needed on the PC... just a network connection.

 

[AnthonyZ]

Convergent Living runs on a fanless linux embedded setup. Course you have to use THEIR units. But works like a champ. and very flexible.

Oh no...you sound like me and we're both in danger of becoming as one dimensional as a certain poster with an affiliation with the company that rhymes with train slobby...

 

[Timoh]

Well it seems like folks are liking the idea of XPe running their HA software. I would definitely keep my security stuff on my caddx, and move everything else off my embedded controller to XPe. i.e: x10, IR, IO control.

In fact thinking about, I could add my IO to my caddx. Instead of thinking about it as "just" as an alarm panel, I could add more input/zone boards and output relay boards and do my on/off/relay IO on caddx, controlled by my XPe HA.

For analog input, I could grab any of the numerous AD input boards out there.

x10/PSC05 I could move off my controller to my XPe and use a PLC/Insteon.

For zoned IR, I haven't found anything reasonable yet. I could just hold onto the Ocelot for that with 16 zoned IR module.

Thanks for the input guys. I'll probably start scheming a solution to move my HA "intelligence" from my embedded controllers to an ultra stable win platform running my HA (HouseBot) software.

Tim

 

[DavidL]

yes, anthonyz, it is easy to get one dimensional. The more time spent with one product, the more the comfort zone and product expertise that can be brought to bare when it is appropriate. Thankfully, there are several of us "one dimensional" forum participants that bring together most of the current viable offerings to one forum for those that are just coming aboard with HA / media control, or are on the fence with next steps.

XPe does not necessarily mean low power / low cpu. It's "just" a Windows OS. Basically stripped down XP. Can run on virtually any Windows compatible PC platform. Typically it is marketed with lower power smaller machines that are more task centric, but that's not it's limitation. so, IVB, there is no reason why your many comports couldn't be handled by XPe. Also, very likely no issue with running CQC on it. In building the XPe image, you would just need to know what drivers and addons you need for all of the purposes of that PC. If you are rendering video etc. on it, you might end up with something pretty close to XPPro when you are all said and done. But, if the machine is just for hardware interfacing, it will be a much smaller image than XPPro and less baggage which equates to higher peformance per hardware $.

 

[Timoh]

Does anyone know how to procure XPe? I currently use an HP thin term for HA which runs XPe. I am hoping to find another for my move away from embedded. The reason is that i can download the XPe embedded image onto a bootable USB and re-image the device.

It's also only about 230MB which is really small and yields great performance/$$$ as you say.

The other stripped down versions of XP I see using tools specifically to do that, seem to only get it down to about 400MB. So there is still quite a difference between XPe and stripped down XP.

Which leads me back to... If I don't find another thin HP term, how do I find a copy (yes legal) of XPe?

Tim

 

[Timoh]

Scratch that. $1000 to buy the MS tools to build an XPe device.

I thought it might be cheaper to buy and build ones own system, but this is not the case. And after poking around on ebay/hp/wyse, it reminded me of what I did when I swapped out my PC for an HP thin XPe device.

I purchased HP t5700 with 1.0Ghz and 256 RAM and 256 flash, upgraded the RAM and Flash to 512, downloaded XPe from HP and booted from USB and installed it.

The t5700 terms are less than $100 on ebay.

I did a quick check on Wyse terms too. You can download their XPe for their terminals no problem.

So it's really now worth it build your own XPe system. Just buy a product that allows you to reflash your XPe onto your device.

Tim

 

[Dean Roddey]

Isn't the issue with buying eXP is that it's not just as single product. It's designed for embedded systems, so you have to buy the tools required to create the image that has just the stuff you want. There's a toolkit out there for that somewhere. We looked at it at one time. You tell it what system features you want and it grinds away and builds in installable image with those features (and I assume figues out the underlying requirements and makes sure they are present as well.) So I assume you can't really just buy a boxed version of eXP off the shelf, right?

There are plenty of small systems out there capable of running a product like CQC, though you should consider how many clients you are going to have. It's not just running the automation software, but also serving up data to clients. If you want to have 8 or 10 clients, you might have to consider whether that's going to be a problem. If you are doing media, then I don't think any embedded system would necessarily be a good choice, though I don't keep up with that stuff too closely so I could be wrong. But you'll generally need a RAID1 configuration for music, and enough of an enclosure to keep those discs cool while potentially constantly being spooling out data.

If you just want a system in the closet to talk to the Elk, HVAC and lighting system, and driving a single wall mounted touch screen, that's not going to strain a decently powered small system. You can easily run such things on an mini-ITX system.