123
Senior Member
Point taken!The '90s; that was ages ago. Your beer has improved tremendously since then. Not the greatest, mind you, but great.
God Bless America
- Thread starter DeLicious
- Start date
Point taken!The '90s; that was ages ago. Your beer has improved tremendously since then. Not the greatest, mind you, but great.
samgreco
Active Member
We do need to be careful with semantics here...
I consider myself Christian and i am very firm in my faith and belief.... this is for many reasons that i won't expound on here.... (Unless someone really wants to know..
But that does not mean that i am religious...
Point taken. And a good point at that. If I changed the word religious to spiritual, would that help
Also, I too am amazed at the discourse here. I have seen these discussions on other fora get REALLY ugly. I think us HA-ers are a unique lot. Must be the intelligence it takes to do it. Or the complete lack of intelligence to keep doing it
Not sure....I'll go with the former.
Steve
Senior Member
I'm not sure I understand this. It sounds like you are saying that only Christians believe in God which surely is not the case. If a non Christian believes in God does that mean that they are not American?
Hi, 123.
Politicians will and do say anything to benefit themselves, no argument there. The are also the "greatest" spin doctors in the world. I just heard "Queen" Pelosi answer a question about how they planned to pay for Obama-Care health plans. Her answer: 50% from cost savings (a joke); the other half from revenue stream. First time I've heard of taxes referred to as revenue stream.
IAE, there are small-minded people aplenty in the US regarding all facets of life. I remember talking to a prospective client early in my career. He had the TV on when I arrived and they were talking about the hockey playoffs going on at that time. He said hockey's the only sport he watches anymore, since it's the only one without blacks (he used a different term). I guess some of my intolerance came through, because I can't tolerate moronic attitudes like that. I said if that's how he feels about other people, then we probably won't have a good working relationship. I said goodbye and left.
Though you won't change my mind that I live in the greatest country, I would never profess that while a guest in another country. I love to travel and experience other cultures. I can't wait to retire so I can travel more often. I do my best to honor the customs of the host country, as well as at least learning how to say some basic courtesies in the host language. My favorite reality show is The Amazing Race. My son and I are hoping the show is still on the air when he finishes his residency in two years. However, I'm extremely embarrassed at some of the contestants comments and lack of courtesy towards people in other countries. There are even some that say "Why don't these people learn English?" How utterly arrogant of them. Unfortunately, there is way too many people with similar attitudes.
Thank you for acknowledging how truly brilliant the Framers were. They formed principles for a government and nation that was extraordinary. Unfortunately, since our last election, I've become frightened at how the work of the Founding Fathers is in danger of unraveling. But that's a discussion for another time.
I have a Canadian friend that is a well-known science fiction author. He was born in the United States while his parents were on vacation, so has dual-citizenship. He's joked with me about how he has the best of both worlds: He's a Canadian with a Social Security card. Though I wouldn't want to live anywhere but here, I'm sure I would have felt equally blessed being born Canadian, except for the cold weather!
Kevin
Not quite sure I follow the second part of the question, but the first part is well taken. I should have said is a Christian country because ~78% believe in the Christian incarnation of God.
--Jamie
123
Senior Member
Kevin,
Yeah, a good chunk of country is like Minnesota.
I find it interesting that the choice of President that makes Americans comfortable, is the one that usually doesn't sit well with other nations. And vice-versa. For example, your current President is seen as an enlightened choice and not a despoiler of all things that Americans hold sacred. Time will tell.
BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
tmbrown97
Senior Member
political/personal belief threads - always dangerous - luckily this is a good group, and while I didn't read every post (i admit) it looks like everyone is being civil - which is why this is a community I respect...
I like IVB's approach - it doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are - I kinda like the vagueness... but here's my $.02.
If I'm at a game and everyone takes their hat off, I'll follow suit. Not because I'm a follower but because I respect their following and beliefs, regardless of my own as long as they're not in direct conflict with my beliefs. That said - if I didn't believe in the Pledge of Allegiance or something along those lines, I wouldn't feel bad about not participating (I wouldn't make a scene - I'd stand with the rest but not recite it - but not disrespect it) - That seems fair. Regardless of my feelings on religion, if our country was bourne on the premise of religion and "In God We Trust" was important to our founding fathers, my own feelings aren't that relevant. It's what this country was based on.
With all that, again - regardless of my personal beliefs, I do think anyone who'd sue a state or church or school over an anthem or a pledge should be exiled to some 3rd world country - where rights don't exist. If religion is being forced down your throat and you don't agree, then you're right to protest - but to protest against others who practice their religion in your presence while accepting your differences - that just pisses me off (if you protest that the pledge of allegiance is read, even if they accept you sitting out - you're the problem, not them). People seriously need something better to do with their lives.
</soap-box>
I like IVB's approach - it doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are - I kinda like the vagueness... but here's my $.02.
If I'm at a game and everyone takes their hat off, I'll follow suit. Not because I'm a follower but because I respect their following and beliefs, regardless of my own as long as they're not in direct conflict with my beliefs. That said - if I didn't believe in the Pledge of Allegiance or something along those lines, I wouldn't feel bad about not participating (I wouldn't make a scene - I'd stand with the rest but not recite it - but not disrespect it) - That seems fair. Regardless of my feelings on religion, if our country was bourne on the premise of religion and "In God We Trust" was important to our founding fathers, my own feelings aren't that relevant. It's what this country was based on.
With all that, again - regardless of my personal beliefs, I do think anyone who'd sue a state or church or school over an anthem or a pledge should be exiled to some 3rd world country - where rights don't exist. If religion is being forced down your throat and you don't agree, then you're right to protest - but to protest against others who practice their religion in your presence while accepting your differences - that just pisses me off (if you protest that the pledge of allegiance is read, even if they accept you sitting out - you're the problem, not them). People seriously need something better to do with their lives.
</soap-box>
I hope you guys dont mind an outsider making a few comments........
From outside looking in a lot of people see the new President as a "Breath of fresh Air" As for religion well .....what can i say born in N.I. father Catholic Mother Protestant grew up during ..... " The Troubles" seen what good christains do to one another ...dont think i,ll be going to church anytime soon.;-)
Must say im impressed with how civil everyone is with their different view points ... Education must be the answer ;-)....
Thanks
Frank
IVB
Senior Member
Here's the thing I'd ask you to consider: How often do you find yourself in the minority position? For me, i'm a different race (Indian), my parents religion (Hindu'ism), and several other areas that aren't relevant.
Throughout my life, I've *constantly* find myself in the minority position.
- When I was in the Boy Scouts, we said a prayer before each meeting.
- When I was on assignment in Chicago, I had to basically haul ass out of several bars in the nice parts of town as I was hitting on blonde girls and the good old boys didn't like that
- Before 9/11, a good buddy of mine is Muslim, and he used to pray in the stairwell at work so as to be out of sight and not make people uncomfortable. I won't re-iterate what my bosses said in front of me about that, and they were the SVPs at a major financial institution.
- Before 9/11, my wife wore a traditional headscarf during her bachelorette party, and was taunted by many guys at the bar they were at. (Fortunately my friends were the bartenders & waiters, so they made sure she was safe)
- After 9/11, well let's just say it was all bad, and we live in one of the most diverse cities in the nation. My wife, who was pregnant at the time, was being yelled at on the street and people actively moved away from her on BART.
- Many many other examples.
Do I have an issue with you practicing your religion in front of me? Not the right question.
You have an issue with my existing, or my friends & relatives practicing their religion in front of you. Maybe not you personally, but thousands and millions of you do. BTW, my company has an office in El Dorado Hills (20 mins east of Sacramento). That is true to this day. Well, maybe the Democrats among you don't, but god damn the redneck republican boys in those bars & restaurants certainly do.
I don't seem to have the same privileges as you, evidenced by the experiences I still have every day. Anyone who doesn't accept that this is still the truth in 2009 is intentionally blind. So you'll forgive me if I get PISSED FUCKING OFF when people insist on shoving "God" in my face in public places. And sorry, Todd, that means the Pledge, God Bless America, and "In God We Trust" on our money.
I say again, if you really believe in the Constitution, and believe in Freedom of Religion as the authors intended it to be, keep religion as the personal intense relationship with your god that it should be. There is NO UPSIDE to referencing god in public, and as you can see from this thread, there's a massive downside.
While I have to admit I have not faced the same persecution as IVB - the danger with the no public mention of religion is that it impedes on the freedom of speech. I think that is why this topic can be so hard - you basically have two constitutionally given rights that tend to be contradictory in some settings.
Are you serious? I'm not sure if you've ever been to the southeast, but there are more democratic upper crust bigots and assholes than I can shake a stick at. Georgia had not had a Republican governor since ~1870 till the latest one, and it has alot of those redneck boys you mention. Democrat and Republican are meaningless labels currently. The current democratic congress was in power since 2002 and had strong hand in our current economic and geo-political woes. In my expereince political affiliation is no indicator of the type of person someone is.
--Jamie
IVB
Senior Member
Point well taken, i apologize if i cast an inaccurate brush. My statement was targeted towards those bars & restaurants my co-workers take me to when we need to have after-hours meetings and don't want to do it @work.
