tmbrown97
Senior Member
I'll apologize in advance - this is long reading. Hopefully it won't turn you off.
Intro:
OK - I finally took the plunge and installed a couple UPB switches I bought over a year ago. I was a little scared of them given my past with X10 and my "noisy" houses. I've been wanting to go all out, but I have all the red flags.. 5 UPS's, an LED Walkway light; low voltage lighting transformers, fluorescent tubes in 5 places; CFL's everywhere but the 2 ceiling fans that need dimming. I was worried about line noise, phase coupling, etc. And then there's cost.
I'm using Simply Automated US240's with different multi-rocker configurations. I had also bought 2 CIM's. One USB (for the computer programming) and one Serial (for the Elk) - both Simply Automated.
Scenario:
Here's the scenario - first install was the Master BR. There's a switch just inside the door that goes to an outlet behind the bed. Never used it (in fact, it was plastered over when the room was retextured - I had to dig it out to replace the receptacle today). There's a ceiling fan with lights (I just replaced it with a new one today). The switch for the ceiling fan/lights is across the room in the bathroom. This is a special fan control - wired, but single gang control of fan and light. Added challenge - the MBR entry switch is what's called an End Of Line switch (google for more info). Basically, it means that there's 2 wires in the box... the load comes in on the black and goes back to the outlet on the white - there's no actual common because it's a loop back to the outlet.
Challenge/solution: No available neutral
So - I asked this question a while ago here - about what to do... and proposed the idea of going to the outlet where it's sending the load over black to the switch, which returns it on white to the outlet. Again - google end of line circuits if this doesn't make sense... I proposed just disconnecting the switch and putting in the SAI switch, wired black to black, white to white, and not hooking up a load - making it transmit only. Then at the outlet, just hooking up all the whites and all the blacks like you normally would. I didn't explain myself well and nobody understood what I was talking about, so I didn't get an answer... but later, I browsed SAI's website and found this article which explains my exact situation and confirms my solution (albeit indirectly) http://www.simply-automated.com/products/faqs.htm#SB11 - so, that's what I did to get neutral in a box that didn't previously have it. Note - if you do this, it needs to be clearly marked and/or you need to fully understand that if anyone ever puts a regular switch back there without rewiring the receptacle, you WILL have a DIRECT SHORT!. Electricians probably won't understand this either if they're not familiar with UPB or other switches.
Challenge/solution: Different fade rates
So, I'm a simplist. I love everything you can do with the SAI switches - but I want them to look like normal switches to a layman so they're not intimidated. It should function like they're used to, while giving me advanced functionality. I got attached to the idea of having a slow off. I'm not sure where I had this or heard about it, but it's been stuck in my head a long time. Normally, I want the lights soft on; soft off... but quick. However, as you're climbing into bed, it's really nice to hit "off" on a 30 second timer (also bonus when waking the wife up nicely - fewer "you're number 1!" signs from her). It gives you time to climb into bed before the lights go off. If you're keeping up, the bathroom switch controls the load, and the entry switch is transmit only - controlling the load. Both are multi-rockers. As I found out, the fade rate is set on the load when configuring the switch; so trying to set 1.6 seconds on one switch and 30 seconds on the entry switch didn't work - it did what the load controller was set for. Discussed this with another UPB user - and we weren't coming up with anything. Finally I noticed that UPB can receive up to 16 results from the looks of things... soooo - I created a second link that's MBR Lights Slow Fade. On a dual rocker, I set main rocker as normal - load controller; 1.6 second fade. 2nd switch controls this with the same 1.6 second fade. The twist - I set it to also respond to the Master Bedroom Slow Fade - with a 30-second fade. Now on the bathroom switch, switch 1 is the normal one, and switch 2 is the slow fade - on or off. Wife got the training in about 10 seconds and is ecstatic with me right now for all the hard work.
Challenge/Question: USB CIM not working
I couldn't get my SAI USB CIM to work for the life of me. I tried multiple computers with varied, but poor results. On the first computer, XP based - running upstart (latest download today) - during connection, would pull accurate stats, like firmware (4.??) and other stuff, but at the end would say disconnected and want me to deal with it. Once in a while I got a connection but it failed every time. Tried another computer - always successfully connected - but everything came up blue check marks but all zeros - including firmware. Unusable. finally I found a computer in the house with Serial and stole the serial CIM from the Elk and plugged it in - and it worked flawlessly - and I got everything set. Problem is, that CIM is for the Elk - and there's no way I'm going to steal it out every time... and most of my computers don't have serial (this one is on its way out). I know this has been discussed previously - anyone know what i need to do to make this thing work? I'll never be able to call tech support while in front of the controller with my work hours...
Conclusion:This is going to be expensive
I checked noise and signal, and they were great. No noise, and signal was acceptable across phases (though dryer was running - need to check again later). This means I'll have to order many more, along with the W800RF32. I already stocked up on x10 keychain remotes and DS10A's a while back in preparation... those will replace our traditional bedside remotes. Then there's the garage light, the 2 hall lights, the rear patio light; the front patio light; the driveway lights; the low voltage lights; the kitchen lights; etc... I'll be trying out the USR's (slave 3-way switches) because I'm cheap - despite many people saying they suck for various reasons... in my scenario i'm just not sure, so I'll try them first for my rear porch light. If they work well, they'll save me a fortune on my 3-way and 4-way hallway lights, and several other 3-way lights throughout the house.
PSS:
Thanks to everyone for all the info I've gained here. Though I don't remember all the reasons now why I chose UPB, when I researched it 18 months ago (through extensive CT reading), it was a clear winner. I was scared of it with past X10 experience, but now that I took the plunge today, I wish I'd gotten off my ass a year ago and dealt with this (and so does my wife). We need time to confirm everything - but I'm ecstatic, and now pretty familiar with upstart. Combined with the M1 integration which I haven't even tested yet, I know this will be a clear winner and an awesome solution. In fact, I'm ordering a few more things tonight to make life easier for the people who'll be housesitting for me while I'm on vacation very soon.
One last important question: non-dimmable loads
Last one... as mentioned, I have all CFL's in my house. I know people say don't dim and they'll be fine... are we completely sure? I've had a lot of issues with motion sensors on CFL's so I don't want to screw around. Part 2 - the ceiling fans... I know the USR240's can't handle motors without unpleasant side effects... but are we all positive they can control a ceiling fan in 100% snap mode (non dimmable)? I have no problem using the chain to select speed - it very rarely changes... as long as I can get it on UPB so we can control it from our x10 remotes via the W800RF32. Are we all sure that's safe? If so, I'll do it - but would otherwise choose SAI relay switches if they were available. In fact, I'd prefer them for all my non-dimmable loads, but they just don't offer them. Do any other makers have one that'd match an SAI switch side-by-side, but be a relay switch?
Thanks all!
Intro:
OK - I finally took the plunge and installed a couple UPB switches I bought over a year ago. I was a little scared of them given my past with X10 and my "noisy" houses. I've been wanting to go all out, but I have all the red flags.. 5 UPS's, an LED Walkway light; low voltage lighting transformers, fluorescent tubes in 5 places; CFL's everywhere but the 2 ceiling fans that need dimming. I was worried about line noise, phase coupling, etc. And then there's cost.
I'm using Simply Automated US240's with different multi-rocker configurations. I had also bought 2 CIM's. One USB (for the computer programming) and one Serial (for the Elk) - both Simply Automated.
Scenario:
Here's the scenario - first install was the Master BR. There's a switch just inside the door that goes to an outlet behind the bed. Never used it (in fact, it was plastered over when the room was retextured - I had to dig it out to replace the receptacle today). There's a ceiling fan with lights (I just replaced it with a new one today). The switch for the ceiling fan/lights is across the room in the bathroom. This is a special fan control - wired, but single gang control of fan and light. Added challenge - the MBR entry switch is what's called an End Of Line switch (google for more info). Basically, it means that there's 2 wires in the box... the load comes in on the black and goes back to the outlet on the white - there's no actual common because it's a loop back to the outlet.
Challenge/solution: No available neutral
So - I asked this question a while ago here - about what to do... and proposed the idea of going to the outlet where it's sending the load over black to the switch, which returns it on white to the outlet. Again - google end of line circuits if this doesn't make sense... I proposed just disconnecting the switch and putting in the SAI switch, wired black to black, white to white, and not hooking up a load - making it transmit only. Then at the outlet, just hooking up all the whites and all the blacks like you normally would. I didn't explain myself well and nobody understood what I was talking about, so I didn't get an answer... but later, I browsed SAI's website and found this article which explains my exact situation and confirms my solution (albeit indirectly) http://www.simply-automated.com/products/faqs.htm#SB11 - so, that's what I did to get neutral in a box that didn't previously have it. Note - if you do this, it needs to be clearly marked and/or you need to fully understand that if anyone ever puts a regular switch back there without rewiring the receptacle, you WILL have a DIRECT SHORT!. Electricians probably won't understand this either if they're not familiar with UPB or other switches.
Challenge/solution: Different fade rates
So, I'm a simplist. I love everything you can do with the SAI switches - but I want them to look like normal switches to a layman so they're not intimidated. It should function like they're used to, while giving me advanced functionality. I got attached to the idea of having a slow off. I'm not sure where I had this or heard about it, but it's been stuck in my head a long time. Normally, I want the lights soft on; soft off... but quick. However, as you're climbing into bed, it's really nice to hit "off" on a 30 second timer (also bonus when waking the wife up nicely - fewer "you're number 1!" signs from her). It gives you time to climb into bed before the lights go off. If you're keeping up, the bathroom switch controls the load, and the entry switch is transmit only - controlling the load. Both are multi-rockers. As I found out, the fade rate is set on the load when configuring the switch; so trying to set 1.6 seconds on one switch and 30 seconds on the entry switch didn't work - it did what the load controller was set for. Discussed this with another UPB user - and we weren't coming up with anything. Finally I noticed that UPB can receive up to 16 results from the looks of things... soooo - I created a second link that's MBR Lights Slow Fade. On a dual rocker, I set main rocker as normal - load controller; 1.6 second fade. 2nd switch controls this with the same 1.6 second fade. The twist - I set it to also respond to the Master Bedroom Slow Fade - with a 30-second fade. Now on the bathroom switch, switch 1 is the normal one, and switch 2 is the slow fade - on or off. Wife got the training in about 10 seconds and is ecstatic with me right now for all the hard work.
Challenge/Question: USB CIM not working
I couldn't get my SAI USB CIM to work for the life of me. I tried multiple computers with varied, but poor results. On the first computer, XP based - running upstart (latest download today) - during connection, would pull accurate stats, like firmware (4.??) and other stuff, but at the end would say disconnected and want me to deal with it. Once in a while I got a connection but it failed every time. Tried another computer - always successfully connected - but everything came up blue check marks but all zeros - including firmware. Unusable. finally I found a computer in the house with Serial and stole the serial CIM from the Elk and plugged it in - and it worked flawlessly - and I got everything set. Problem is, that CIM is for the Elk - and there's no way I'm going to steal it out every time... and most of my computers don't have serial (this one is on its way out). I know this has been discussed previously - anyone know what i need to do to make this thing work? I'll never be able to call tech support while in front of the controller with my work hours...
Conclusion:This is going to be expensive
I checked noise and signal, and they were great. No noise, and signal was acceptable across phases (though dryer was running - need to check again later). This means I'll have to order many more, along with the W800RF32. I already stocked up on x10 keychain remotes and DS10A's a while back in preparation... those will replace our traditional bedside remotes. Then there's the garage light, the 2 hall lights, the rear patio light; the front patio light; the driveway lights; the low voltage lights; the kitchen lights; etc... I'll be trying out the USR's (slave 3-way switches) because I'm cheap - despite many people saying they suck for various reasons... in my scenario i'm just not sure, so I'll try them first for my rear porch light. If they work well, they'll save me a fortune on my 3-way and 4-way hallway lights, and several other 3-way lights throughout the house.
PSS:
Thanks to everyone for all the info I've gained here. Though I don't remember all the reasons now why I chose UPB, when I researched it 18 months ago (through extensive CT reading), it was a clear winner. I was scared of it with past X10 experience, but now that I took the plunge today, I wish I'd gotten off my ass a year ago and dealt with this (and so does my wife). We need time to confirm everything - but I'm ecstatic, and now pretty familiar with upstart. Combined with the M1 integration which I haven't even tested yet, I know this will be a clear winner and an awesome solution. In fact, I'm ordering a few more things tonight to make life easier for the people who'll be housesitting for me while I'm on vacation very soon.
One last important question: non-dimmable loads
Last one... as mentioned, I have all CFL's in my house. I know people say don't dim and they'll be fine... are we completely sure? I've had a lot of issues with motion sensors on CFL's so I don't want to screw around. Part 2 - the ceiling fans... I know the USR240's can't handle motors without unpleasant side effects... but are we all positive they can control a ceiling fan in 100% snap mode (non dimmable)? I have no problem using the chain to select speed - it very rarely changes... as long as I can get it on UPB so we can control it from our x10 remotes via the W800RF32. Are we all sure that's safe? If so, I'll do it - but would otherwise choose SAI relay switches if they were available. In fact, I'd prefer them for all my non-dimmable loads, but they just don't offer them. Do any other makers have one that'd match an SAI switch side-by-side, but be a relay switch?
Thanks all!
