Insteon radio frequency?

[coppercox]

This may be a naive question but since Insteon uses radio frequencies couldn't a rf remote "learn" the frequency to control Insteon switches thereby saving all of us from that ugly remote SH is pushing!!!???

I know it cannot be that simple but can someone please explain why it wouldn't work?

 

[MikeB]

I'm not aware of any universal remote that learns RF. If there is one, please point me to it!

 

[coppercox]

Mike, fast reply!! thanks... hmmm, very good point...I went to google immediately after reading your post and learned that there doesn't appear to be one!!! wow...to think we can goto the moon and back but cannot make a rf learning remote!!! the entrepreneur out there that makes this happen will definitely get rich!!!

I knew it was too simple!!!

 

[az1324]

It sounds easy but there are a lot of things going on in RF communication. With IR it is just pulses of light on and off and there are also a small number of standards that most devices use. So that's why its possible to make a universal IR remote. With RF it is much more than capturing a pulse train. Read this for starters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation

 

[coppercox]

az132,

Informative article on the Wiki, after reading it it seems even more possible:

would a rf scanner be able to pick-up the rf of an Insteon light switch when transmitting? could that signal then be programmed into a RF modulator? Using some rf filters and putting it all in a nice little hand-held device would make a simple rf remote... Is it that simple?

This doesn't seem beyond today's technology!! Maybe the FCC regs on this prevent the tech companies from making such a remote.

 

[WayneW]

would a rf scanner be able to pick-up the rf of an Insteon light switch when transmitting?

Current Insteon switches do NOT transmit or receive RF. The only Insteon RF devices are the phase couples/RF transceivers (Signalinc & AccessPoints) and the new RemoteLinc.
Doesn't the Harmony 890 learn RF?

 

[DeLicious]

I do not believe the Harmony 890 learns RF. On the Logitech support site, under the Harmony 890 FAQ:

Q: Will the H890 control my RF devices?
A: The RF frequency the H890 can control is 908.42 MHz. This RF frequency is known as Z-waveTM. Your RF device needs to use the Z-wave RF frequency in order for the H890 to control it.

 

[coppercox]

would a rf scanner be able to pick-up the rf of an Insteon light switch when transmitting?

Current Insteon switches do NOT transmit or receive RF. The only Insteon RF devices are the phase couples/RF transceivers (Signalinc & AccessPoints) and the new RemoteLinc.
Doesn't the Harmony 890 learn RF?

well, I thought the Harmony 890 learned rf but I now believe it learns IR only... but can transmit set RF frequencies to the RF receiver which converts to IR to control IR hardware. this so u can control your ir equipment in closets and behind walls...

If u r right then the signalinc/accesspoints/remotelinc transmit the signal then that is the signal that needs to learned by the rf learning remote.

 

[BLH]

The Insteon RFLinc unit are on 904 Mhz per the FCC web site. The new Access Points for the RemoteLinc was not listed yet by the FCC.
Each switch and device has its own 6 Hex Digit ID and I doubt you could learn Insteon Commands; as each has to be address directly to react and it also has to have the sending units ID in its Link database or it ignores the commands.

 

[az1324]

Well it is certainly within the reach of current technology to make a universal rf remote (see software defined radios), but that is certainly not the easiest nor cheapest way to make a better looking wireless insteon remote. There will be 3rd party wireless remotes coming out as soon as insteon starts shipping chips. I expect logitech will simply put an insteon wireless chip in their remotes instead of a z-wave chip and there you have it.

 

[Herdfan]

There will be 3rd party wireless remotes coming out as soon as insteon starts shipping chips. I expect logitech will simply put an insteon wireless chip in their remotes instead of a z-wave chip and there you have it.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that.

Logitech is a member of the Z-Wave Alliance. They are NOT a member of the Insteon alliance. (At least not a listed member.)

If there was any sniff of anyone who could make a remote that was interested in making one, do you think SH would have come out with that hideous thing?

 

[az1324]

No one is making one because they havent been shipping chipsets so no prototypes can be made, etc. Now that the access points are on the way hopefully the chipets are ready and things can get rolling.

 

[jarcher]

RF remotes do not just transmit pulses of energy like IR remotes do. To answer the original question, the frequency is the 900MHz band, where unlicensed operations are permitted below certian power levels.

RF transmission involves frequency, proper modulation scheme but also a protocol. The protocol is essentially the language that the two devices speak. As it turns out, Insteon has published the protocol specification in a white paper that's posted on their web site. So anyone could make a remote, or with the proper RF hardware make a computer talk to the devices.

But there is a lot more going on here than a device just listening to another device and copying it. If nothing else, the transmission payload data is encrypted.

 

[rocco]

But there is a lot more going on here than a device just listening to another device and copying it. If nothing else, the transmission payload data is encrypted.

Like much of Insteon, some things called out in the specification are not yet implemented. Encryption is one of them.

But aside from that minor discrepancy, jarcher is right. The Insteon packets contain the source address, as well as the destination address. To simply copy and repeat a packet would be to impersonate another device, and may have unintended consequences. Also, if a remote did not understand the protocol, it would not know to re-transmit a packet when it failed to receive an acknowledge, and would not understand the retry counters. The reliability mechanisms within Insteon would break.

And although device impersonation might work with Insteon, it would not work with ZigBee and most other RF protocols. Most RF protocols use sequence numbers to insure that packets are unique, and not re-transmissions due to a missed acknowledge. A packet that was repeated by a learning-remote would be discarded as just that: a repeated packet.