Insteon SwitchLincs @$39.99

[Steve]

Geez Peter, thanks for clearing it all up :lol:

Anyway, I'm still in agony from sitting on the fence.

I hope its a big fence cause your not the only one on it.

the look/feel of the Insteon switches is better

Hmmm, Smarthome must have made some big improvement there cause I find the UPB switches to be very high quality and better than the original Switclincs. Now you're saying the Insteons are better quality than UPB? The buzz really doesn't bother me or the wife much either.

What does have WAF in the toilet right now is reliability. I've even half considered chucking the whole dang mess and going back to regular switches. Lights that are supposed to go off late at night sometimes don't. Heck, last night wife was up at 3 AM shutting lights off. If that doesn't kill WAF, what will? Granted, those switches are X10 switchlincs but there is a phase coupler /repeater in place. I have missed a couple of UPB signals in testing but none are totally automated yet.

I have to admit I am sliding a bit on the fence toward the Insteon side. If they can guarantee delivery, and the switches truly are of high UPB caliber quality and they are now half the price of UPB, that may just sway me. I think I'll wait till Elk supports them natively and decide then.

I would still like to hear from Chris or anyone that has had experience with both UPB and Insteon. Zwave is not a consideration for me.

--Confused in FL :blink: :wacko: :huh:

 

[ChrisWalker]

Chris Walker,

You mentioned you have installed many products other than Z-wave. Can you comment your experiences with UPB and Insteon and perhaps compare the two?

Squintz,

Insteon, in particular, is still under evaluation. We realize that real people live in our test homes. As such, X10, for our purposes, never even made it past initial feasability studies. Insteon will make it farther for sure; if we can get some good test results in the lab, we'll put it into homes and see how it does there.

We may have some good lab results on it later this year, though.

Chris

 

[PeterW]

I think Smarthome wants Insteon to be the next X10

Oh absolutely! And I think they've got a really good shot at it unless they do something dumb in the next 6 months or otherwise screw something up bigtime.

At least they dont have a web site like the (usually) hideous x10.com site.

1) It is fast as heck! It is percievably instant. Way faster than both UPB, and X10 isn't even in the same league.
2) It is reliable, especially when you have more than a few devices. After a few hiccups with the initial seed set of devices in the starter kit, reliability here went up rather than down with more devices. The repeating/simulcast system can probably take the credit for this. Since I added logging in my code, I've had a 100% positive 'ack!' rate on all commands issued to devices. And thats with 45 X10 transmitters sucking away at the insteon signal.
3) The message protocol is clearly X10 inspired, rather than something like UPB. Most of the commands seem to have direct translations between X10<->Insteon, while UPB has a far richer set of commands. The proposed TW523 emulator option seems realistic with Insteon. Being able to retrofit a couple of RAIN8 type devices would be supurb.
4) built-in pervasive wireless support. The more RF<->powerline bridges, the merrier. Keychains and motion sensor builders should love this.
5) Manual device->device linking is trivial and is actually rather convenient. eg: if you have a switchlincV2 for a room, and only one outlet for the lights (or the switched outlet is in an inconvenient location), you can replace a messy extension cord with lamplincs and trivially slave them to the wall switch without a computer. The response time really is instant, did I mention that already?

The things I don't like are:
1) You can't enumerate or "discover" the devices on your network. The bogo-security protocol prevents this, yet doesn't provide real security. Having to write down the serial numbers of every device and typing them in on your computer is a PITA, but thats actually the least painful way of getting a new installation up and running.
2) No wire-in bridge/repeater for the breaker box yet. The UPB "universal" passive bridges might bridge Insteon well enough to cross phases though. I can try it, but have not got around to it yet.
3) Writing software gets hairy for Insteon compared to UPB and X10, especially because of the "security" measures that get in your way. There are lots of subtle quirks deal with too.

#3 is the kicker IMHO. Commercial software support isn't going to happen overnight.

Tip: if you're installing switchlincV2s in advance with the intention to use a computer or HA system later on, be sure to write down the serial numbers before putting on the face plates!

 

[PeterW]

Geez Peter, thanks for clearing it all up

Anyway, I'm still in agony from sitting on the fence.

I hope its a big fence cause your not the only one on it.
.

Heh! I've almost decided. I was hoping the HAI UPB switches would put up a serious challenge, but its looking (to me) like it just wasn't meant to be.

the look/feel of the Insteon switches is better

Hmmm, Smarthome must have made some big improvement there cause I find the UPB switches to be very high quality and better than the original Switclincs. Now you're saying the Insteons are better quality than UPB? The buzz really doesn't bother me or the wife much either.

What does have WAF in the toilet right now is reliability. I've even half considered chucking the whole dang mess and going back to regular switches. :wacko: Lights that are supposed to go off late at night sometimes don't. Heck, last night wife was up at 3 AM shutting lights off. If that doesn't kill WAF, what will? Granted, those switches are X10 switchlincs but there is a phase coupler /repeater in place. I have missed a couple of UPB signals in testing but none are totally automated yet.

I have to admit I am sliding a bit on the fence toward the Insteon side. If they can guarantee delivery, and the switches truly are of high UPB caliber quality and they are now half the price of UPB, that may just sway me. I think I'll wait till Elk supports them natively and decide then.

Re look/feel.. I guess thats a personal issue. I've got SwitchlincV1's throughout the house, my wife loves the feel of those. I had some Simply Automated switches in the kitchen after tearing out the original J-box and putting a bigger one in so they'd fit. The SA switches felt fine, but my wife said she liked the switchlincV1's better. We then tried a pair of HAI UPB switches. Oh man, those looked sweet, but felt like crap to use. My wife hated the feel of them. To me they felt "cheap", in spite of what they cost. And one of the HAI ones blew up. So much for that.

I personally slightly prefer the feel of the SA UPB switches over the switchlincs. I like the "look" of the switchlinc-V1's best.

For all intents and purposes, the switch mechanism of the switchlincV1 and V2 is the same. If you like the feel of the UPB switches over the switchlincV1's, then the V2's won't feel any better. Perhaps that is what you really want to know?

I have had UPB problems lately. The kitchen lights have had intermittent visibility blackouts over the last month, and the phase bridge has been giving me trouble lately. UPStart reports the signal quality between the PIM and the SA switches as near full scale, then a few minutes later it'll be down at about 10% of the scale, with nothing obvious having changed or turned on/off. I'd love to know why. I hope it isn't something silly like a loose neutral wire or the like. Anyway, moving all the UPB devices to the same phase solved my reliability problems..

But I swapped the HAI UPB kitchen light for a switchlincV2-relay device. My wife immediately noticed (she normally notice this stuff right away unless its annoying her) and it has proved rock solid since. And since I go out of my way to not discourage her from going into the kitchen, I decided that I'd go with the flow there.

X10 just simply isn't reliable. I have a coupler/repeater at the breaker box (not just a phase bridge). Actually, I've almost convinced myself that the coupler/repeater is being sabotaged by the UPB passive phase bridge.

Anyway, maybe an ACT coupler/repeater or a lightolier firewall would solve my problems.. but why bother? The writing is on the wall for X10. And if Smarthome keeps the prices low while establishing Insteon's foothold, then I think its going to kill X10 for serious DIYers. And make a serious dent in UPB and Z-wave.

BTW: Z-wave is out of the question here due to the closed specs. The UPB folks and Smarthome were not that dumb.

I still use a stack of UPB modules for my aquarium controls though. I dont trust AppliancelincV2's yet, nor my software. Especially after reading about problems with appliancelincs driving CF fluroescent lights on another forum. 30 lights in close proximity would be asking for trouble.

 

[ChrisWalker]

PeterW said: BTW: Z-wave is out of the question here due to the closed specs. The UPB folks and Smarthome were not that dumb.

PeterW -- is that because you can't write your own software to control it? If you had that ability, would it be an option? Etc.

From what I hear, Zensys made the choice to not publish their protocols for (a) competitve reasons; ) to help ensure that software on the marketplace met their quality specs. I'm not going to say this was a good choice or not, but it seems to have its pros and cons.

Chris

 

[PeterW]

Yes, I write my own code for fun. I write operating system kernel code for a living, and this sort of distraction (among other things) helps keep me sane. I wasn't prepared to drop $10,000 to Zensys for the info, especially when the UPB specs were open and freely downloadable. I thought HCA would be a suitable X10<->UPB bridge, but its limitations became too frustrating and I finally got around to writing a UPB backend of my own to run alongside the X10 backend.

Smarthome sells an SDK and you have to get your product certified in order to use the Insteon name, but that's no big deal for me. At least the kit includes hardware and a paid support incident for the money. But its still a bargain compared to the Zensys situation. And its a relatively small blip on the radar when you start thinking of 50 or so intelligent switches.

Anyway, thats my motivation. I plan to give it away if/when its ever in better shape. The Zensys situation would prevent that.

 

[WayneW]

It looks like the $39 price is "permanent". I got this in an advertising email from SmartHome today.

Price Drop on INSTEON SwitchLinc V2 Dimmer & Relay!

Now Only $39.99

Just announced: Effective immediately, Smarthome is dropping the price of INSTEON SwitchLinc V2 600-Watt Dimmer and Relay switches to $39.99! We're getting a break on manufacturing prices because of increased volume, so we're passing the savings on to you.

 

[Rupp]

This is good news now when are they going to start clearing out the old X10 switches.

 

[dwarf]

I think Smarthome wants Insteon to be the next X10

Smarthome is distancing Insteon from X10, not trying to replace it. Insteon technology is reliable and robust whereas X10 is neither. Smarthome wants it to be the next standard and by the new pricing structure I think people doing comparison shopping between UPB/Zwave/Insteon will sway real quick.

 

[madmax]

I wonder if Zwave will drop their prices? I know they are already around $40, but Zwave appliance & lamp modules cost more than insteon modules. Also, the insteon switchlincs appear to be nicer. The have indicator lights and different colored faceplates. I have been hearing that there will be new zwave products soon, but will they be $40? If not, does Zwave stand a chance? I am torn here. I have 6 Zwave appliance modules and a serial Zwave controller on backorder. I could easily cancel the backorder and go insteon before I buy 20-30 switches, but I am not sure.

 

[Rupp]

madmax,
Do you have problems with X10 signals? If so you'll probably have some of the same problems with Insteon. If not then I would go with what's the best deal.

 

[electron]

madmax,
Do you have problems with X10 signals? If so you'll probably have some of the same problems with Insteon.

I am not sure if I understood that statement correctly, but as far as I know, Insteon doesn't have the same problems as X10 does (it's faster, more reliable, ...).

 

[upstatemike]

madmax-

I have been as skeptical as anyone about all of the new technologies. Like Rupp I was concerned that INSTEON would suffer from the same noise and signal suck problems as X-10 due to the similarity in frequency range etc. After seeking advice here and reading the INSTEON whitepaper I am convinced that INSTEON will work better than X-10, even in a challenging enviroment like mine. Add to that the fact that the INSTEON stuff is cheaper, is available now, has a shallow form factor for easy installation, has the option to change the colors of the paddles AND the LEDs, and I would seriously consider canceling your Z-Wave backorder.

The only concern you might have about INSTEON is that there is currently no controller support. I'm betting that will be resolved shortly.

 

[Mike]

And best of all every switch is 2-way without the x10 concerns of eating all the signal strength up. It's not as deep of a switch, and it's cheaper too! Being able to know the status of every switch is a big plus. I originally thought I could avoid some of that when I started buying switchlincs but in hindsight it was flawed.

Insteon is now my current plan as well. I was considering UPB (some of the multi-switch options are very nice) but without a light bar (a big minus for the wife) and a higher price, I was 'swayed real quick'.

Good timing too, I needed some more switches to tie into my Elk for automation (granted it will be done using X10 until the Insteon is supported, but that seems to just be a matter of time)...

I do think Smarthome should have offered an option for a switchlinc v1 type look for those who invested in their earlier switches. Then again, its possible that mixing Insteon's and X10 switches may degrade reliability even further due to the 2-way nature of insteon switches (as otherwise it's a bit dissappointing as it means, thow out everything you have if you want to use Insteon).

 

[Rupp]

madmax,
Do you have problems with X10 signals? If so you'll probably have some of the same problems with Insteon.

I am not sure if I understood that statement correctly, but as far as I know, Insteon doesn't have the same problems as X10 does (it's faster, more reliable, ...).

Dan,
Noise on the power line is just that. It can affect UPB as well as Insteon because it's all PLC based. It may be to a lesser degree but it does happen. The jury is still out on Insteon but for UPB a noisy environment will destroy it's signal as well. There are several threads on this on the HS BB as we speak. So if UPB is susceptible then Insteon will likely be susceptible. For may users I hope Insteon is more reliable than X10 because they have gone broke buying filters. Hopefully the data will start pouring in as the technology gets in gear.