ipad

shenandoah75

Active Member
I didn't see any posts on this - is anyone else thinking that the ipad would potentially be a better portable touch solution (and/or remote control) than windows platforms like the Q1?

my platform is J9AE, but i think that's irrelevant... regardless of the HA platform, i think this could be a great use for it? Ya there's missing stuff and i can't tell if it would sit horizontally in a dock (but don't think so)

any other thoughts?

-brad
 
It definitely has potential as a portable HA interface. That said, I have had multiple tablets in the past, and unless you have a dedicated home theater or a mansion, I'm not sure how useful it would be.
 
For a strickly Automation Interface, it iPad might be great. If someone is looking for a full tablet experience, the iPad is lacking IMHO.

Good Things:
- Nice battery life (10 hours +).
- Thin design
- 9.7" screen

Bad Things:
- Runs the iPhone OS which means no concurrent applications (you must close out the current application to open another - this is fine on a phone, but not a tablet computer).
- No Flash support (no surprising since it is Apple, but will prevent lots of web sites and applications from working correctly).
- No camera (no video calls, skype, etc)
- No USB ports
- No HDMI (tablet can play HD material, but it has no method of outputting it to another screen)
- No GPS

IMHO, if this device was produced by anyone other than Apple, it would be a completel failure. We'll have to wait and see if Apple can get enough fan support to make it fly. But initial opinions are not positive, even in the Apple community.

I think we are going to see a number of Android tablets released in 2010 and many are going to be priced similarly to the iPad, but have much better specs. If I wanted a rounded tablet experience, I certainly would be waiting to see what other options present themselves before buying an iPad.

For a strickly automation interface use, many of the lacking features are not needed. Therefore there could be some real traction in this environment.
 
Not exactly true.

Bad Things:
- Runs the iPhone OS which means no concurrent applications (you must close out the current application to open another - this is fine on a phone, but not a tablet computer).

The iPhone can run concurrent apps. You don't think so. You can listen to music, play a game, and download a software update all at once. That is concurrent in my book, but your right, full multitasking would be better, and I'm sure will come with time.

- No Flash support (no surprising since it is Apple, but will prevent lots of web sites and applications from working correctly).

This is a bit more technical than political. There is a bit of a hack that allows it: Flash Hack for iPhone but in time I think you might see this native as well. Until then, your right, some web sites won't run, but you would be amazed how many sites now have an iPhone specific page without Flash.

- No camera (no video calls, skype, etc)

Another feature I bet you'll see in the next release.

- No USB ports

True, but there are workarounds. I have WebDav running on my Windows Home Server so can access any file with my iPhone. Its interesting you didn't say no floppy drive or DVD drive, because at one point, EVERY computing device just HAD to have those, but we know those things have gone the way of a typewriter, but yes old habits die hard.

- No HDMI (tablet can play HD material, but it has no method of outputting it to another screen)

It does not have HDMI but that doesn't mean it can't through an adapter. It DOES support 720P external output.


There in fact is GPS and location tracking over Wi-Fi using technology from SkyHook. It also contains an electronic compass. I'm not really sure why everyone is saying it doesn't have GPS when the Apple site clearly says it does.
 
You are right, I should have said multi-tasking rather than running concurrent apps.

Regarding GPS, there is something called Assisted GPS on the 3G model. No one knows what this means exactly yet. But the WiFi only model will not have any GPS. Kind of like the iPhone vs iPod Touch where the 3G enabled device (the iPhone) had GPS and the WiFi only version does not. In time we will find out if it has a real GPS chip, or if it will rely on 3G service to triangulate position.

If everyone is so sure that Apple is going to quickly release a model with better specs, why would anyone want to buy one now? And why would people let Apple get away with crap like that. They did it with the iPhone and it pissed people off. I'd hate the see the reaction if they do it again. It certainly wouldn't think it would increase their credibility - even with rabid Apple fans.

PS - I'm not trying to totally dismiss the iPad either. I actually think it might be a good fit for me. I currently do not have a MP3 player, but want one for the car. I do not expect to take it to the gym or jog with it, etc. I also would like a wireless CQC interface viewer that ran CQC natively (I currently use several Nokia tablets and use RDP on them). So for me, getting the larger iPad might be a good alternative to an iPod Touch. I could do more with it, and still take it in the car for MP3s.

I would really want a 3G unit however since I have a basic work phone with no data service. That would raise the price well above the iPod Touch versions however, so my mind isn't made up yet. In the end, if there was a CQC Android client, I would probably wait until more Android tablets were out for comparison however.
 
You are right, I should have said multi-tasking rather than running concurrent apps.

Regarding GPS, there is something called Assisted GPS on the 3G model. No one knows what this means exactly yet. But the WiFi only model will not have any GPS. Kind of like the iPhone vs iPod Touch where the 3G enabled device (the iPhone) had GPS and the WiFi only version does not. In time we will find out if it has a real GPS chip, or if it will rely on 3G service to triangulate position.

If everyone is so sure that Apple is going to quickly release a model with better specs, why would anyone want to buy one now? And why would people let Apple get away with crap like that. They did it with the iPhone and it pissed people off. I'd hate the see the reaction if they do it again. It certainly wouldn't think it would increase their credibility - even with rabid Apple fans.

PS - I'm not trying to totally dismiss the iPad either. I actually think it might be a good fit for me. I currently do not have a MP3 player, but want one for the car. I do not expect to take it to the gym or jog with it, etc. I also would like a wireless CQC interface viewer that ran CQC natively (I currently use several Nokia tablets and use RDP on them). So for me, getting the larger iPad might be a good alternative to an iPod Touch. I could do more with it, and still take it in the car for MP3s.

I would really want a 3G unit however since I have a basic work phone with no data service. That would raise the price well above the iPod Touch versions however, so my mind isn't made up yet. In the end, if there was a CQC Android client, I would probably wait until more Android tablets were out for comparison however.

These are all good points.

Assisted GPS is a technology that has been around for a while now in the cell phone world. With regular GPS, a receiver in the GPS device receives information directly from satellites, but the problem is the data rate from each satellite is very slow because it has to travel from high in the sky to the small antenna of your device. Two pieces of info must be sent, some timing pulses and almanac info that describes where each satellite is located at any one time. This can take considerable time, and if the signal isn't good, it can take longer. If you buy a new GPS device that hasn't been run for a while, this is why it takes so long to get its first fix.

The idea with assisted GPS is only use the satellites for the bear minimum info that has to be sent to determine their location, and send the almanac info over cellular or Wi-Fi. That is the "assist" part. Of course this only works if the device has a cellular signal or Wi-Fi signal to receive it over. Because of assisted GPS, phones (or an iPad) can get a location fix fast, and at a much lower signal than required for full GPS.

But as I said, assisted GPS only works IF there is either a cellular or Wi-Fi signal. What happens if there isn't? If there isn't, devices using assisted GPS WON'T have your location. The GPS on most phones acts this way, so don't think about using the GPS in your phone is its NOT in cellular range. Some phones have the ability to fall-back to regular stand-alone GPS if assisted GPS is not working. If your phone does or doesn't do this, its more about politics than technology. If a phone (or iPad) has assisted GPS, it has an antenna and processor and everything it needs for standalong GPS, its just a matter if the operator ENABLES it or not. Many operators charge a monthly fee to use GPS, so they don't want your phone doing it if you are not paying. For the iPad, I see no reason why Apple wouldn't support stand alone GPS, but only Apple and AT&T know for sure.

If everyone is so sure that Apple is going to quickly release a model with better specs, why would anyone want to buy one now? And why would people let Apple get away with crap like that. They did it with the iPhone and it pissed people off. I'd hate the see the reaction if they do it again. It certainly wouldn't think it would increase their credibility - even with rabid Apple fans.

I'm afraid that is life, my friend. Why would anyone buy a Toyota Prius this year when you know they are going to improve it next year, for example with a plug-in model? Why buy the iPhone 3Gs when they are coming out with a better model? Tell me WHAT product was NEVER enhanced during its life? And I bet the iPad will get cheaper as well. The first iPhone was $499, or $300 more than today's more advance iPhone. If you want the best iPad at the cheapeast price, wait until about 2031 when its finally discontinued. :rockon:
 
I like Apple's hardware, and I like OSX. But if I buy a device like a phone or a tablet, I should be able to do whatever I want with it without having to hack it. Personally, I'm waiting a few months for the Tegra 2 based tablets to come out running Android. They'll probably be cheaper, they'll have multitasking (what is this, 1982?), and I won't be locked into the AppStore to put new software on it.

I'm sure someone will jailbreak the iPad at some point. My iPhone is jailbroken. It's a pain in the ass when an upgrade comes out because you have to wait for someone to come up with a jailbreak/unlock every time. My next phone will be Android.
 
I didn't see any posts on this - is anyone else thinking that the ipad would potentially be a better portable touch solution (and/or remote control) than windows platforms like the Q1?

my platform is J9AE, but i think that's irrelevant... regardless of the HA platform, i think this could be a great use for it? Ya there's missing stuff and i can't tell if it would sit horizontally in a dock (but don't think so)

any other thoughts?

-brad

It seems like a nice piece of hardware with a nice dock accessory (but no native sd card slot and NO NATIVE USB, what the hell is that?) but the closed Apple ecosystem and the overly restrictive Operating System make it a definite NO GO in my book.
 
Assisted GPS is a technology that has been around for a while now in the cell phone world. With regular GPS, a receiver in the GPS device receives information directly from satellites, but the problem is the data rate from each satellite is very slow because it has to travel from high in the sky to the small antenna of your device. Two pieces of info must be sent, some timing pulses and almanac info that describes where each satellite is located at any one time. This can take considerable time, and if the signal isn't good, it can take longer. If you buy a new GPS device that hasn't been run for a while, this is why it takes so long to get its first fix.

The idea with assisted GPS is only use the satellites for the bear minimum info that has to be sent to determine their location, and send the almanac info over cellular or Wi-Fi. That is the "assist" part. Of course this only works if the device has a cellular signal or Wi-Fi signal to receive it over. Because of assisted GPS, phones (or an iPad) can get a location fix fast, and at a much lower signal than required for full GPS.

I dont mean to nit pick but my understanding of assisted GPS was that it used cellular signals to triangulate your position. I did not think that it had a gps radio in any way integrated into and does not receive any signals from GPS satellites.
 
I've outgrown using technology for the sake of technology. I use technology to accomplish the tasks I need or want to do. When I travel just need a good web browser, e-mail reader, and some games. I may need to open a Word doc, Excel spreadsheet or Powerpoint now and then, but that's about it, and oh, maybe watch a movie or two in the plane or AirPort. Really I couldn't care less if it multitasks because I don't. And the OS only matters to the extent that the programs I want to use are available. And it has to be light because I'm sick of heavy laptops in the security line.

I own two iPod Touches and use them daily. Got one free when I bought my wife's new iMac. The ONLY problem with the iPod Touch for me is that the screen is a bit small for some tasks, so again this is perfect. There is even a CQC app that will run on this.

On a technical board like CocoonTech you expect lots of argument over specs, but most people don't care about specs, only if the device can perform the job they need. Its not going to replace all Macs or PCs or other Android tablets, or Amazon Kindles, or netbooks or MIDs. Its simply lots of good technology at a good price that may work for you. If not, there are plenty of other options.
 
It should be mentioned that although the iPad will run iPhone apps, according to Apple you can choose what mode you want... stretched or small and centered.

The J9AE iPhone app was written to use the full screen size whatever that may be... it asks the hardware what the screen size is before displaying anything. However it appears that Apple may still be telling iPhone apps running on the iPad that the screen resolution is only 320x480 to provide maximum compatibility. This would mean that you will likely need a new app with the "iPad setting" activated so it can truly take advantage of the higher resolution. Although if this is true it is unfortunate, but we'll make sure the J9AE app runs on the iPad at full resolution in the end. :rockon:

From what I hear, Apple is also working on a universal app mode but apparently it is not complete yet.

Johnny
 
Sorry,

Not to nitpick, but I had to come back and clarify a point on "Assisted GPS".

First, as pointed out, it is only available on the 3G model, the Wi-Fi only edition doesn't have this feature. The cool thing is that while the 3G model does cost more, you don't need to pay for a data plan if you don't intend to use 3G. However if you are going to use 3G for data service, at least you can now take advantage of a pay as you go type plan instead of a fixed contract.

That said, Assisted GPS is fully functional GPS. As there a numerous GPS sats, devices need to be able to locate quickly and calculate your locatation. This can be a complex matter, and the older GPS devices used to take a long time in people patience to sync up the first time. Some products use a little trickery to improve performance. TomTom, of which I own a brand new model from this Christmas season downloads a "QuickGPSFix" file every time you sync it to the computer to help improve this time. Each "QuickGPSfix" update is valid for 7 days.

Instead of downloading a QuickGPSfix application every 7 days like a Tom-Tom, the existing iPhone 3G and 3GS will use cellular tower triangulation, wi-fi or 3G internet data lookup to replace the need for a "QuickGPSfix". Once the sat positioning data is located, the iPhone can now access the GPS sats in a much more efficient lower power mode and still be quick and accurate.


Here are some links to help, since Apple doesn't do a good job explaining this themselves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS
http://www.gpsworld.com/gps/assisted-gps-a...re-approach-734
http://www.gpsworld.com/gps/assisted-gps-961

So a large part of the Assisted portion is to help ensure quick and accurate GPS sat location (startup) without a large expenditure of power.

As for if the GPS will work without Cellular triangulation? I used my iPhone and it's GPS internationally (Nairobi, Kenya and also Managua, Nicaragua) and I've run into a problem, there are cellular networks and data networks available I've gone. How can I test if GPS doesn't work without either infrastructure not being present?

The issue is more of an issue with the "free" GPS enabled applications on the phone (Google Maps and Google Earth) that do not store the map database on the device. This tethers the GPS functionality to access to the "internet". TomTom and others do sell GPS software for the iPhone that have full map databases and remove the need for the internet tether, but the price is so close to the stand alone devices from that vendor when on sale that it doesn't make much sense. But in locales where the iPad is most likely to be used, the ubiquitous access to the internet via Wi-Fi access points or 3G data service is more than likely to be available.

So if GPS is a need, just purchase a 3G model of the iPad and forget how it works for GPS, it just does and meets the deffinition of "real GPS".
 
I dont mean to nit pick but my understanding of assisted GPS was that it used cellular signals to triangulate your position. I did not think that it had a gps radio in any way integrated into and does not receive any signals from GPS satellites.

No worries, it's just that your understanding is a miss-understanding. :D The assist is just to rapidly locate the GPS sats and then allow the phone, or in this case, the iPad to use a much lower power mode of communicating with those GPS sats. It does have a GPS radio, but it is integrated with the 3G chipset and requires the purchase of a 3G equiped iPad.

No different that these other providers GPS enabled phones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_devic...th_Assisted_GPS
 
Not exactly true.

Bad Things:
- Runs the iPhone OS which means no concurrent applications (you must close out the current application to open another - this is fine on a phone, but not a tablet computer).

The iPhone can run concurrent apps. You don't think so. You can listen to music, play a game, and download a software update all at once. That is concurrent in my book, but your right, full multitasking would be better, and I'm sure will come with time.

- No Flash support (no surprising since it is Apple, but will prevent lots of web sites and applications from working correctly).

This is a bit more technical than political. There is a bit of a hack that allows it: Flash Hack for iPhone but in time I think you might see this native as well. Until then, your right, some web sites won't run, but you would be amazed how many sites now have an iPhone specific page without Flash.

iPhone, for specific features using the built-in ipod functions does give the appearance of a multi-tasking device, but that same functionality is not availble to all your applications. You need to hit the home button and then relaunch the app. However, this can be added with updates in the future as Mac OSX does have this feature and Apple does claim the iPhone OS is a form of MAC OSX. But it's not presently there.

The impact on home automation is that if a native app is devloped (not just simply browser access to a HA webpage) and you are task switching around to different applications, you won't be able to get back to the same spot without drilling back down again. Perhaps not a show stopper, but it does have an impact.

As for flash pages in the browser? This is an issue. Negating it buy saying may sites have non-flash content means for some that they'll need to redesign their own home browser configuration if they had used lots of flash based content.

Reminds me of using the 3COM Audrey, only it could support some earlier forms of Flash :D

Regardless though, there is potential and I'm sure workarounds will be developed. Just look at the cost! At the lower end devices (16G) it's much less than the cost of fixed function touch screens from many HA vendors and it has the powerful guesture interaction.

So it is exciting, but there a many issues to be resolved before declairing it the panacea Apple hypes it to be.
 
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