Irrigation and water Pump using M1RB or M1OVR?

[LBeck]

I have: Elk M1 Gold + M1RB + M1DBH + M1XOVR - not operating yet.
I would like to automate my RainBird Valves from sprinkler system using ELK M1 and a 1HP water pump to work the system properly.

Looking other questions and answers, I found how to connect the valves wires using M1RB and/or M1XOVR relay. Questions are: Is there any situation to use M1RB or M1XOVR? Which are diferences between them? In which situation should I use one instead of the other?

Does anyone of forum can draw a diagram how to connect a 220v pump with a M1RB or M1XOVR (using maybe a contactor like LC1D093B7 from Schneider - 9A - 3P - 24V AC Coil)?
 

 

[az1324]

M1RB converts existing outputs, does not ADD outputs.  M1XOVR ADDS outputs.
 
For pump: http://www.amazon.com/Omron-G7L-2A-BUBJ-CB-Insulation-Terminal-Mounting/dp/B0073U7AHG/

 

[LBeck]

Thanks az1324, but in practice I understand that both (M1RB and M1XOVR) can be used for my propose - irrigation system.
Sorry but I don't know so much about electronics ( I understand about computers ans electric). When you say that M1RB convert you mean that the relay close the circuit? If I am right the M1XOVR works in the same way!
 
For the pump I am outside USA so, is difficult for me buying something. I need to know how wire and which controller (M1RB and M1XOVR) to use to turn on an 1HP  220v pump.
 
One more question about M1XOVR: You say it ADD outputs but can I "control" if is an output voltage or output relays?

 

[az1324]

M1XOVR adds 16 outputs to the system.  8 have relays and 8 have voltage.  They are fixed.  You can think of M1XOVR as a 16 output expander with one M1RB built in.  M1RB is just a board with 8 relays that converts 8 existing unused voltage outputs to relay outputs.  What you can attach to the relays is the same. 
 
 G7L-2A-BUBJ-CB AC24 is sold by many worldwide distributors.

 

[Del91574]

XOVR also draws a TON of power when multiple relays are being used over a RB that is connected to the keyed header.

 

[az1324]

Well they are the same relays.  They draw 30mA each.  But for irrigation usually only one relay is energized at a time anyway.

 

[LBeck]

How many irrigation valve can be energized together from M1RB?
Is it possible to conect the contactor (for pump) together considering that only one valve irrigation relay will be connected at time?

 

[bucko]

I also use and MXVOR and a M1RB in my setup. What I do is also use a 12 vdc DPDT relays. I have the M1RB or the MXVOR as a switch to actually trip the DPDT relay which does the heavy lifting. This way I am not overpowering my Elk power. The DPDT relay trips which actually sends power to the device. I use a 12vdc 8amp camera power supply to provide power thru the DPDT relay and on to the device.
 
Basically this isolates device power from my Elk panel. Elk's relays are simply the switches to control the DPDT's. Should a device short out or do something bad, my Elk relays are still happy campers. DPDT relays are cheap and easily replaceable, not so with a MXVOR or a M1RB.
 
I have my Elk set up where I can remotely boot my router, Vera, AP's, even my IPTV box. I have rules to reboot these devices on a regular basis or I can do it remotely if need be.

 

[fcwilt]

The power flowing through the relays on the OVR is in no way related to the ELK power which is powering the board.
 
As long as you stay within the ratings of the ELK relays, things will be fine.
 
There is no harm in controlling one relay with another but if the load is compatible with the first relay the second relay isn't really buying you anything but a bit of wasted power and a bit more complexity.
 
The ELK relays on the OVR are pretty robust: 7A at 32VDC, 10A at 125VAC. A quick check of some common irrigation valves is showing a rating of 24VAC and under 1/2A. So the relays on the ELK OVR are more then adequate.
 
If I was worried about burning out the contacts on the ELK relay (which I'm not) I would be more inclined to include a fuse rather then a second relay.

 

[LBeck]

So, I understand that I can control a 1HP 220v pump using a contactor with 24VAC coil connected to M1RB relay? Am I right?

 

[fcwilt]

So, I understand that I can control a 1HP 220v pump using a contactor with 24VAC coil connected to M1RB relay? Am I right?

 
1. You need a power source for the contactor coil - the ELK Relay will only make/break a circuit.
 
2. The rating of the coil of the contactor needs to be within the capabilities of the ELK Relay: max 7A at 32VDC, 10A at 125VAC.
 
So if the contactor coil was rated at, say, 1/2A 24VAC then the ELK Relay would easily handle that and you could use a typical HVAC 24VAC transformer as the power source for the contactor coil.
 
And as mentioned the M1RB is an "add-on", if you will, for the M1XOVR allowing the 8 voltage outputs to be "converted" to relay "outputs". You could use 1 of the 8 relays on the M1XOVR instead of adding the M1RB.

 

[LBeck]

1.Thanks Frederic,
2. I intend to use the same power source that I will use with irrigation valves.
[SIZE=large](Transform power source = 24Vac - 1,2A - 60Hz[/SIZE]
[SIZE=large]Power = 30VA[/SIZE])
3. Contactor - Schneider LC1D093B7
Do you think that this contactor will be ok? (these numbers I don't understand so much!)
 
Main

Commercial Status

Commercialised

Range of product

TeSys D

Product or component type

Contactor

Device short name

LC1D

Contactor application

Motor control
Resistive load

Utilisation category

AC-1
AC-3

Poles description

3P

Pole contact composition

3 NO

[Ue] rated operational voltage

<= 300 V DC for power circuit
<= 690 V AC 25...400 Hz for power circuit

[Ie] rated operational current

9 A (<= 140 °F (60 °C)) at <= 440 V AC AC-3 for power circuit
25 A (<= 140 °F (60 °C)) at <= 440 V AC AC-1 for power circuit

Motor power kW

5.5 kW at 660...690 V AC 50/60 Hz
5.5 kW at 500 V AC 50/60 Hz
4 kW at 415...440 V AC 50/60 Hz
4 kW at 380...400 V AC 50/60 Hz
2.2 kW at 220...230 V AC 50/60 Hz

Motor power hp

7.5 hp at 575/600 V AC 50/60 Hz for 3 phases motors
5 hp at 460/480 V AC 50/60 Hz for 3 phases motors
2 hp at 230/240 V AC 50/60 Hz for 3 phases motors
2 hp at 200/208 V AC 50/60 Hz for 3 phases motors
1 hp at 230/240 V AC 50/60 Hz for 1 phase motors
0.5 hp at 115 V AC 50/60 Hz for 1 phase motors

Control circuit type

AC 50/60 Hz

Control circuit voltage

24 V AC 50/60 Hz

Auxiliary contact composition

1 NO + 1 NC

[Uimp] rated impulse withstand voltage

6 kV conforming to IEC 60947

Overvoltage category

III

[Ith] conventional free air thermal current

10 A at <= 140 °F (60 °C) for signalling circuit
25 A at <= 140 °F (60 °C) for power circuit

Irms rated making capacity

250 A DC for signalling circuit conforming to IEC 60947-5-1
140 A AC for signalling circuit conforming to IEC 60947-5-1
250 A at 440 V for power circuit conforming to IEC 60947

Rated breaking capacity

250 A at 440 V for power circuit conforming to IEC 60947

[Icw] rated short-time withstand current

61 A <= 104 °F (40 °C) 1 min power circuit
30 A <= 104 °F (40 °C) 10 min power circuit
140 A 100 ms signalling circuit
120 A 500 ms signalling circuit
100 A 1 s signalling circuit
210 A <= 104 °F (40 °C) 1 s power circuit
105 A <= 104 °F (40 °C) 10 s power circuit

Associated fuse rating

20 A gG at <= 690 V coordination type 2 for power circuit
25 A gG at <= 690 V coordination type 1 for power circuit
10 A gG for signalling circuit conforming to IEC 60947-5-1

Average impedance

2.5 mOhm at 50 Hz - Ith 25 A for power circuit

[Ui] rated insulation voltage

600 V for signalling circuit certifications UL
600 V for signalling circuit certifications CSA
690 V for signalling circuit conforming to IEC 60947-1
600 V for power circuit certifications UL
600 V for power circuit certifications CSA
690 V for power circuit conforming to IEC 60947-4-1

Electrical durability

2 Mcycles 9 A AC-3 at Ue <= 440 V
0.6 Mcycles 25 A AC-1 at Ue <= 440 V

Power dissipation per pole

AC-3
1.56 W AC-1

Protective cover

With

Mounting support

Plate
Rail

Standards

EN 60947-4-1
EN 60947-5-1
IEC 60947-4-1
IEC 60947-5-1
UL 508
CSA C22.2 No 14

Product certifications

BV
CCC
CSA
DNV
GL
GOST
RINA
UL
LROS

Connections - terminals

Power circuit: lugs-ring terminals - external diameter: 0.31 in (8 mm)
Control circuit: lugs-ring terminals - external diameter: 0.31 in (8 mm)

Tightening torque

Power circuit: 15.04 lbf.in (1.7 N.m) - on lugs-ring terminals - with screwdriver Philips No 2 screw : M3.5
Power circuit: 15.04 lbf.in (1.7 N.m) - on lugs-ring terminals - with screwdriver flat Ø 8 mm screw : M3.5
Control circuit: 15.04 lbf.in (1.7 N.m) - on lugs-ring terminals - with screwdriver Philips No 2 screw : M3.5
Control circuit: 15.04 lbf.in (1.7 N.m) - on lugs-ring terminals - with screwdriver flat Ø 6 mm screw : M3.5

Operating time

4...19 ms opening
12...22 ms closing

Safety reliability level

B10d = 20000000 cycles contactor with mechanical load conforming to EN/ISO 13849-1
B10d = 1369863 cycles contactor with nominal load conforming to EN/ISO 13849-1

Mechanical durability

15 Mcycles

Operating rate

3600 cyc/h at <= 140 °F (60 °C)
Complementary

Coil technology

Without built-in suppressor module

Control circuit voltage limits

0.85...1.1 Uc at 140 °F (60 °C) operational 60 Hz
0.8...1.1 Uc at 140 °F (60 °C) operational 50 Hz
0.3...0.6 Uc at 140 °F (60 °C) drop-out 50/60 Hz

Inrush power in VA

70 VA at 68 °F (20 °C) (cos ϕ 0.75) 50 Hz
70 VA at 68 °F (20 °C) (cos ϕ 0.75) 60 Hz

Hold-in power consumption in VA

7 VA at 68 °F (20 °C) (cos ϕ 0.3) 50 Hz
7.5 VA at 68 °F (20 °C) (cos ϕ 0.3) 60 Hz

Heat dissipation

2...3 W at 50/60 Hz

Auxiliary contacts type

Type mirror contact (1 NC) conforming to IEC 60947-4-1
Type mechanically linked (1 NO + 1 NC) conforming to IEC 60947-5-1

Signalling circuit frequency

25...400 Hz

Minimum switching current

5 mA for signalling circuit

Minimum switching voltage

17 V for signalling circuit

Non-overlap time

1.5 ms on energisation (between NC and NO contact)
1.5 ms on de-energisation (between NC and NO contact)

Insulation resistance

> 10 MOhm for signalling circuit
Environment

IP degree of protection

IP2x front face conforming to IEC 60529

Protective treatment

TH conforming to IEC 60068-2-30

Pollution degree

3

Ambient air temperature for operation

23...140 °F (-5...60 °C)

Ambient air temperature for storage

-76...176 °F (-60...80 °C)

Permissible ambient air temperature around the device

-40...158 °F (-40...70 °C) at Uc

Operating altitude

9842.52 ft (3000 m) without derating in temperature

Fire resistance

1562 °F (850 °C) conforming to IEC 60695-2-1

Flame retardance

V1 conforming to UL 94

Mechanical robustness

Shocks contactor closed 15 Gn for 11 ms
Shocks contactor open 10 Gn for 11 ms
Vibrations contactor closed 4 Gn, 5...300 Hz
Vibrations contactor open 2 Gn, 5...300 Hz

Height

3.03 in (77 mm)

Width

1.77 in (45 mm)

Depth

3.39 in (86 mm)

Product weight

0.71 lb(US) (0.32 kg)

 

[fcwilt]

I believe this contactor is suitable for your application as it is rated at 1HP for 230-240VAC. The coil power, at hold in, is 7.5VA which is about 1/3A so that 24VAC transformer will handle it leaving 22.5VA for the irrigation valves.
 
Depending on the irrigation valve current requirements and how many you are going to have, you might overload the transformer if multiple valves were actuated at the same time.

 

[LBeck]

Thanks to clear the questions for me!
I think I will "öpen" just one or two irrigation valves together (total = 8 valves) because the irrigation system depends of the pressure of the water gaved from 1HP pump.
So two irrigation valves + 1HP 220v pump.