Is 14/3 wire required for all home automation that will power CFLs?

J

jbrukardt

Member
Long story short, I have three mitigating factors to bringing my home up into an automated environment
 
1) All my lamps (ceiling lights, usually 3-5 lights on a fan, no independent fan control) run CFLs
2) I have a "smart" power meter, ive heard this kills most options, true/false?   Its an RF meter  (Landis+Gyr Focux AXR-SD)
3) I have older wiring in my home, mostly two conductor + ground at best (read 14/2 ROMEX or cloth wire equivalent) 
 
 
It seems that almost every solution requires 14/3 wire for a neutral bus in every socket, that seems really infeasible, i dont know of hardly any houses, even modern houses that are fully wired with 3 conductor wire for no reason, am i confused about something here?
 
I only wish to control lightswitches.    A total of 9 throughout the house.
 
  1. For low powered/non-incandescent lamp control, you typically need a neutral at the switch location.  Now you can always use z-wave/upb/insteon lamp modules at the outlet and use wireless transmitters; but for switch locations, you do need a neutral.  The reason for this is that the switches that don't use a neutral leach power from the affected load.  In an incandescent, that tiny bit of power that passes through to the bulb is unnoticeable.   With CFL's or LED's however, that tiny bit of power will affect the ballasts and the electronics and cause issues.
  2. Smart Meters are used throughout california and I haven't heard of any issues with them; I have one and it doesn't affect my powerline communications one bit.
  3. Depending on your house, is it possible to run new wires at all?
Most homes actually do have 14/2 (which is hot/neutral plus ground, despite the naming convention) - there were acceptable code practices that allowed end-of-run switches but most of the time, romex runs in a path and has the hot/neutral/ground running together for simplicity.  The Neutral isn't used at the switch location, so it tends to be tied together in the back of the switchbox and not hooked to anything - you can usually pull it out and tie it to the switches.
 
Of course things change drastically by locale - some areas never use romex - but there everything is in conduit; also age plays a factor - sometimes it requires pulling new wires, but if you have a basement/attic and don't have fireblocks in the wall, even that isn't as daunting as it sounds.  In some seemingly worst case scenarios, opening drywall is required but again - even that isn't nearly as hard as it sounds - you can cut holes anywhere you need than have a drywall contractor come in and fix them all in 2 half-days' work or you can do it yourself.
 
There are people on this forum that have dealt with every possible situation - so if you post more specifics about your situation hopefully you can get some tips on how to overcome the challenges.  To many of us, the rewards are worth it - it adds security and convenience to your home and chances are, the wiring upgrades will increase the value of your home anyway.
 
In the old days we ran the power w/neutral to the light first, then dropped a switch leg (2 wire) to the physical switch.
Current thinking is to run power w/neutral to the primary switch box then wire the switch leg to the fixture.
 
The new lutron pico (staples) dimmers are 2-wire and they support dimmable cfl and led.  There is even a list of confirmed working bulbs.
 
I'm having trouble finding info on these 2-wire Pico's - all I'm finding are decora-style wireless switches which can be mounted in a standard switch location but don't connect to any wires. Also, what wireless standard to they interface with, if any?
 
Not that this is a 100% bad solution - if you just can't or don't want to get wires into that location, you can always cap the wires at the switch location to 100% on and then use an RF Switch that fits in that same spot but doesn't connect to the wiring - I did that in some of my apartments to get full fan/light control before I got into full blown automation and owned my homes.
 
Work2Play said:
  1. For low powered/non-incandescent lamp control, you typically need a neutral at the switch location.  Now you can always use z-wave/upb/insteon lamp modules at the outlet and use wireless transmitters; but for switch locations, you do need a neutral.  The reason for this is that the switches that don't use a neutral leach power from the affected load.  In an incandescent, that tiny bit of power that passes through to the bulb is unnoticeable.   With CFL's or LED's however, that tiny bit of power will affect the ballasts and the electronics and cause issues.
  2. Smart Meters are used throughout california and I haven't heard of any issues with them; I have one and it doesn't affect my powerline communications one bit.
  3. Depending on your house, is it possible to run new wires at all?
Most homes actually do have 14/2 (which is hot/neutral plus ground, despite the naming convention) - there were acceptable code practices that allowed end-of-run switches but most of the time, romex runs in a path and has the hot/neutral/ground running together for simplicity.  The Neutral isn't used at the switch location, so it tends to be tied together in the back of the switchbox and not hooked to anything - you can usually pull it out and tie it to the switches.
 
Of course things change drastically by locale - some areas never use romex - but there everything is in conduit; also age plays a factor - sometimes it requires pulling new wires, but if you have a basement/attic and don't have fireblocks in the wall, even that isn't as daunting as it sounds.  In some seemingly worst case scenarios, opening drywall is required but again - even that isn't nearly as hard as it sounds - you can cut holes anywhere you need than have a drywall contractor come in and fix them all in 2 half-days' work or you can do it yourself.
 
There are people on this forum that have dealt with every possible situation - so if you post more specifics about your situation hopefully you can get some tips on how to overcome the challenges.  To many of us, the rewards are worth it - it adds security and convenience to your home and chances are, the wiring upgrades will increase the value of your home anyway.
Click to expand...
 
So wait, point of confusion.   I have 14/2, in a lot of places (or can run it if i dont), but from my understanding, that does NOT meet the neutral requirement, you need 14/3.  Am i confused here?
 
I can run new wires up to the switch in most places, but running it from the switch to the ceiling lights is most likely a big no-go due to plaster and lathe, and ceiling fans and lights not being aligned with the joists, meaning cutting huge swathes of the ceiling apart. 
 
Work2Play said:
I'm having trouble finding info on these 2-wire Pico's - all I'm finding are decora-style wireless switches which can be mounted in a standard switch location but don't connect to any wires. Also, what wireless standard to they interface with, if any?
 
Not that this is a 100% bad solution - if you just can't or don't want to get wires into that location, you can always cap the wires at the switch location to 100% on and then use an RF Switch that fits in that same spot but doesn't connect to the wiring - I did that in some of my apartments to get full fan/light control before I got into full blown automation and owned my homes.
Click to expand...
 
Option 2 there sounds interesting, mind explaining a little more?   Also having trouble finding info on the pico's.    Also, i should note, i dont remotely care about dimming.  
 
14/2 is actually normally black/white + bare ground.  14/3 is technically 4 conductors - usually black/red/white+bare ground.  14/3 is great for ceiling fans or travelers.  For normal switch locations, 14/2 is all that's required - of course that is really 3-conductor.
 
As long as you can get a neutral to the switch from the SAME CIRCUIT - not stolen from another circuit, I beleive that satisfies the requirements without getting into code issues.  The key is to make sure that it's on the same breaker/circuit, even though they're technically all bonded back at the panel.  Maybe some of the real electricians on here can elaborate if that's a problem - the point is to eliminate the potential for current carrying when the circuit is switched off.
 
jbrukardt said:
Option 2 there sounds interesting, mind explaining a little more?   Also having trouble finding info on the pico's.    Also, i should note, i dont remotely care about dimming.  
Click to expand...
Heh - I didn't either until I moved in here - previously the CFL's came first, then the switches - so I didn't care about dimming... here the switches came first, then the bulbs - and by then I was hooked on dimming.  Went with all LED's.  If interested, check out the 400+ post LED thread that's usually hovering towards the top - there are some really nice LED bulbs that can be had for as little as $5 in many localities ($10 regular, but local power co's are subsidizing).
 
Anyway - here's just one example of a way to retrofit automation without adding wires in those tough situations.  Basically where the mechanical switch is that cuts power on/off, you cap the wires together so they're always hot.  If this controls a plug-in lamp, now the outlet is on full-time, but you can plug it into one of these lamp modules so it's controlled by the RF Switch.  If it's a ceiling fixture, you find a place to put one of these fixture modules in the can where the light attaches or nearby in the attic (if multiple lights, you figure out which one is first in series and install there; the downstream ones SHOULD follow unless there's a junction instead of daisy chain).
 
Note - this is just an example with Z-Wave; I have no first-hand experience with these devices so quality may vary... but being an inherently wireless technology it's an easy starting point.  The same would work with those Pico devices.  UPB can also do this using an enocean to UPB bridge with enocean self-powered switches (never change a battery!).  Insteon seems to have a similar option for the wireless switch with this wall pad.  They all have in-fixture modules so if you get a better idea which technology you want, we can point you in the right direction.
 
Note - this costs more upfront in hard costs, but if time is tight or you don't want to mess with wiring much, it'll get you there fastest and still keep you in standard protocols that integrate well.
 
Work2Play said:
14/2 is actually normally black/white + bare ground.  14/3 is technically 4 conductors - usually black/red/white+bare ground.  14/3 is great for ceiling fans or travelers.  For normal switch locations, 14/2 is all that's required - of course that is really 3-conductor.
 
As long as you can get a neutral to the switch from the SAME CIRCUIT - not stolen from another circuit, I beleive that satisfies the requirements without getting into code issues.  The key is to make sure that it's on the same breaker/circuit, even though they're technically all bonded back at the panel.  Maybe some of the real electricians on here can elaborate if that's a problem - the point is to eliminate the potential for current carrying when the circuit is switched off.
Click to expand...
 
 
correct, the ground basically doesnt count.  Thats what ive got throughout, 14/2 (black, white, bare ground).   Dont get me started on my circuits though.... while i plan to fix them, theyre an utter and complete mess. I have things like a single outlet on the upstairs bedroom, the kitchen GFCI, and a light in the living room all on the same circuit.   For no reason at all.  Its very very confusing.  Finding good neutral on the same circuit before i rewire completely is going to be a hellish task. 
 
Going back to the wire at your switch.... is that 14/2 the only wire coming into that box?
If it is then that would explain why you're confused with needing 14/3 - that line would be a feed coming FROM the light fixture acting as hot/switched hot/ground with no neutral.
 
jbrukardt said:
So wait, point of confusion.   I have 14/2, in a lot of places (or can run it if i dont), but from my understanding, that does NOT meet the neutral requirement, you need 14/3.  Am i confused here?
Click to expand...
It matters HOW the wiring is run as much as if it is 14/2 or 14/3.  If the power is routed to the switch first then you have access to the neutral (the white wire) at the switch.  But if it goes to the light first and then a "switch leg" goes to the switch then you don't have neutral unless you have 14/3 from the light fixture to the switch.  There was no point in running that for old school switches.  I think 14/2 switch legs are frowned on for newer construction because the white wire carries the power and was (is?) an exception to the "white is neutral" rule.  It was allowed (not sure if it still is) to wrap each end of the white strand with colored tape to indicate it was hot rather than neutral.  If you pull out the switch and find black wires on both terminals you should also find the white in the back of the box. 
 
If you can get to the switch boxes and you have switch legs one option is to abandon the power run to the light fixture.  Run a new power run to the wall switch and use the existing wire run from switch to fixture.  No ceiling cutting needed.  If you have 3 way switches it gets more complicated but for a single switch circuit that would work.
 
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