Lutron Sues Leviton Over RF Lighting Controls

[dublin00]

The patent Lutron has is too broad and is NOT an invention.

Remember, you cannot patent and idea or concept. You can only patent the implementation of that idea or concept. You have to make it work, and making an RF light-switch in the early '90s was no trivial task.

I agree with you that the Lutron patent is a good valid one (it is just too bad that they are not playing nice with the rest of the HA industry over it), but I have to respectfully disagree that you can't patent an idea or concept.

The patent library is full of thought-experiment patents. This is especially true in the fields of software and computer/networking hardware where it is impossible for the patent office to verify that the patent was really implemented. I agree with you that ideally that shouldn't be the case, but it happens all too often.

 

[rocco]

Hi, Dublin00, point well taken.

The USPTO sometimes approves patents that may be invalid, as well as turning down valid ones (almost all patents are rejected on their initial review). I would suspect that the unimplemented patents would be difficult to enforce, and would fall if challenged.

 

[Tombo]

You have to make it work, and making an RF light-switch in the early '90s was no trivial task.

Did they patent Z-wave mesh networking? Did they patent a light switch that uses a relay or triac? Tell me what was copied! Its a bogus patent lawsuit that is NOT being infringed upon. There is no technology being copied! Its an idea which is a stretch. If Lutron had half a brain it would make products that customers want and they would not have to worry about creating lawsuits. Why dont they just layoff all their engineers now, kick up their feet, and collect royalties. Then they can join the other scum that making their living leaching off of hard work of others. Or if they are smart, make the best cost effective product you can and the consumer will be behind you and you win on both sides. I think Lutron picked the former.

Tom

 

[rocco]

Did they patent Z-wave mesh networking?

There was too much prior art. Wireless mesh networking is the basis for cell phones. There are over a hundred patents on wireless mesh. Nokia alone holds about a dozen.

Instead of taking the patent route, ZenSys has made the ZWave protocol a closely guarded secret. How competitive is that ?

Did they patent a light switch that uses a relay or triac?

Yes. Lutron invented and patented the triac-based dimmer in the late fiftys. Of course, that patent has long since expired.

Tell me what was copied!

1) Having a switch transmit a button press via radio,
2) Embedding a radio transmitter/receiver inside a light switch, and
other less interesting aspects, like physical design. (Lutron also applies for "design" patents, which covers the "look" of a product, just as Apple is does).

Or if they are smart, make the best cost effective product you can and the consumer will be behind you and you win on both sides.

Some (not I) would argue that they do make the "best cost effective product". That may be why they are the largest. Check out there offerings at Home Depot or Lowes. Or better yet, check out the RadioRA thread on CocoonTech.

 

[George West]

Did they patent Z-wave mesh networking? Did they patent a light switch that uses a relay or triac? Tell me what was copied! Its a bogus patent lawsuit that is NOT being infringed upon. There is no technology being copied! Its an idea which is a stretch. If Lutron had half a brain it would make products that customers want and they would not have to worry about creating lawsuits. Why dont they just layoff all their engineers now, kick up their feet, and collect royalties. Then they can join the other scum that making their living leaching off of hard work of others. Or if they are smart, make the best cost effective product you can and the consumer will be behind you and you win on both sides. I think Lutron picked the former.

Tom

Hey Tom,

I'm not sure what either the physical or network layer has to do with the application, which is what is under dispute in this case. The IP dispute here is (among other things) the use of RF to return status of the switch. Lutron successfully defended this patent in the past against Vantage Controls in 2006. "Bogus" might be just a little over the top as a description.

It's hard to make the claim that Joel Spira or Lutron are engaged in any heel kicking up. The original dimmer patents date from 1962 and the applications were even earlier. These patents refer to the original Shockley patents and use a device described as a 4 element diode (n-p-n-p) junction. Not to put too fine a point on it this is before the term "transistor" even existed.

Not only did Spira patent his design he even reduced it to practice and started a company (Lutron) to manufacture and sell the products.

For a kick go to http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm and look up patent numbers 3,061,744 and 3,032,688. (Requires quicktime and I had the best sucess with IE as a browser). This may be one of the earliest consumer applications for semi-conductor technology. I literally had shivers when I read them but then I am an engineer. YMMV.

Oh, and for those that are interested the Zensys patents are 6,980,080 and 6,879,806. Both patents refer to the Lutron -442 patent.

One final item: The original Zensys business plan from back in 1999 was to be a low cost clone of RadioRA...

George West
www.wtrs.net

 

[Tombo]

The IP dispute here is (among other things) the use of RF to return status of the switch. Lutron successfully defended this patent in the past against Vantage Controls in 2006. "Bogus" might be just a little over the top as a description.

So you tell me you think that using RF to send back a status is an invention worthy of a patent. I dont. I think RF has been used enough in the past for so many other purposes that it does not make this an invention. Bogus is not over the top in my view. Defending the patent successfully means absolutely nothing to me since I feel the court system and patents is completely disfunctional. The only bright thing about this is that the system is getting so polluted that it will break. I am sure other manufactures can come after Lutron for infringement on their patents.

 

[upstatemike]

I feel the court system and patents is completely disfunctional.

Yes but it is the American way. (I'll probably be sued for saying that since the "idea" of America was patented a few years ago by the U. S. Plus Corporation ).

 

[opie]

As a few in this thread had guessed, it looks like it will end up a licensing fee deal for Leviton.

Full story here.