Lou, I think I got it. My mistake was that I was looking for Elk offerings to interface with Insteon / UPB. I need to look into Insteon / UPB PLM offerings and then use serial interface from ELK to connect. I guess Elk's firmware takes care of the rest and Elk's software is smart enough to recognize what is connected and to enable each to talk to each other and to be controlled from Elk's software.
New Construction, am I on the right track?
- Thread starter reko19
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tmbrown97
Senior Member
The Elk or HAI systems definitely have the ability to be your complete home automation system. HAI has their own offerings to make up a complete system, and also interfaces with the common systems out there. Elk doesn't really have their own thermostats or lighting controllers, so they just build in the ability to connect to 3rd party systems. From what I've seen, there's little advantage to one over the other unless you want a complete HAI system out of the box with their screens, controllers, etc - since they do pretty much cover every base. That said, I use an Elk because they've always supported DIY, where HAI only recently started to.
As said above, the M1 uses a Serial Port adapter to connect to most automation devices (thermostats, lighting controllers, etc) - to help, here's a link to the manual that might give you a better idea. Elk also now has a native UPB controller you can buy that connects directly to the databus vs. using an interface module with a serial adapter. I don't think there's any difference in functionality.
For thermostats, Elk can do Z-Wave (I'm not sure which models or if there are limitations) and it can do HAI, AprilAire and RCS's serial thermostats; so you have plenty of options, especially in new construction.
For me, the Elk is 90% of my automation with Elve software adding in additional rules and better touchscreens. It lets you start small and build up. Also, as said above, it's pretty sweet to be able to have your security system respond to lighting events, or lights turn on as doors open, or porch lights turn on if someone rings the doorbell after they've turned off or if someone leaves the house late at night; etc.
As said above, the M1 uses a Serial Port adapter to connect to most automation devices (thermostats, lighting controllers, etc) - to help, here's a link to the manual that might give you a better idea. Elk also now has a native UPB controller you can buy that connects directly to the databus vs. using an interface module with a serial adapter. I don't think there's any difference in functionality.
For thermostats, Elk can do Z-Wave (I'm not sure which models or if there are limitations) and it can do HAI, AprilAire and RCS's serial thermostats; so you have plenty of options, especially in new construction.
For me, the Elk is 90% of my automation with Elve software adding in additional rules and better touchscreens. It lets you start small and build up. Also, as said above, it's pretty sweet to be able to have your security system respond to lighting events, or lights turn on as doors open, or porch lights turn on if someone rings the doorbell after they've turned off or if someone leaves the house late at night; etc.
Thank you, what are you using for lighting control with Elk? I was thinking Z-Wave but UPB seems to be everyone's fav on this forum.
pete_c
Guru
I'm still migrating to UPB/Z-Wave from Insteon and X10. Today my HAI OPII panel has an X10, Z-Wave and UPB PIM connected to it. Lighting modules are a mix. UPB and X10 is still a truely just powerline protocal where as Z-Wave is wireless and Insteon is a hybrid of the two. X-10 is a legacy one wall protocal. With UPB you can poll the switches and get status from each via the powerline. The switches also utilize links. Just to see how well Z-Wave wireless works I put the PIM between conduit adjacent to the fuse panel. It still works fine to the opposite side of the home with no Z-Wave modules between the two.
I used X10 for many years with no issues. With the introduction of compact fluorescent it all went south. No matter what I do there is still one light fixture in the house that puts so much junk on the power lines that everything stops working.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I'm using UPB. The reason is when I started 3 years ago, Z-Wave wasn't nearly as evolved as it is now, and Insteon was in the midst of their quality and service problems. I also use a W800RF32 from WGL to let me use the cheapo X10 RF remotes with my UPB switches - all in all it works great. I have stick-on switches next to the chair where I read to my daughter at night to control the lights in her room via RF; and I have closets with standard security sensors on the doors that go through the elk and turn the lights on/off automatically when the door is opened/closed. And for the kids bathrooms a simple X10 motion sensor turns the lights on since they can't reach the light switches. The scene control is really awesome - to be able to press a button upstairs that turns off all the lights downstairs; or as the alarm finishes the countdown timer while armed away, every light in the house and the fireplace turn off.
Check my signature (might have been a dead giveaway about which lighting I use) for more info about UPB in general.
I don't *need* z-wave since I have Serial (RS232) communication with my lights and thermostats, but one of these days I'll be adding Z-Wave in too for the door locks.
OK, thanks everyone for your help. After some researching last night, looks like in order to proceed with Elk and assuming I need remote access via web and UPB lighting control I would need:
1. Elk M1GSYS4S Gold Security System with Semi-Flush-Mount Keypad (bundle)
2. M1 Ethernet Port Expander/Interface
3. RCS Serial RS-485 Communicating Network Thermostat with LCD Display Screen (or any other RS-485 thermostat)
4. Elk M1DBH M1 Databus Hub
5. ELK-M1PCSPIM UPB Interface for M1G & M1EZ8
6. Elk M1KPAS LED Arming Station (for back entrance, etc)
Am I missing something? Also, could someone recommend a good on-line place for motion sensors, glass break, etc.
As a side note,looks like for HAI Omni IIe, items 2, 4, and 5 are already built-into the system if I am not mistaking.
Thanks.
1. Elk M1GSYS4S Gold Security System with Semi-Flush-Mount Keypad (bundle)
2. M1 Ethernet Port Expander/Interface
3. RCS Serial RS-485 Communicating Network Thermostat with LCD Display Screen (or any other RS-485 thermostat)
4. Elk M1DBH M1 Databus Hub
5. ELK-M1PCSPIM UPB Interface for M1G & M1EZ8
6. Elk M1KPAS LED Arming Station (for back entrance, etc)
Am I missing something? Also, could someone recommend a good on-line place for motion sensors, glass break, etc.
As a side note,looks like for HAI Omni IIe, items 2, 4, and 5 are already built-into the system if I am not mistaking.
Thanks.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
That should get you started. Most of us also have some relay boards so we can control random stuff with the Elk. You can always add these on as time goes by. The dbh does make life easier and keeps your wires looking pretty.
Before you commit to a lighting system, you might just buy a couple switches from a few different technologies and manufacturers to see if you like them. The elk won't be able to talk to them of course until you get an inteface, but that won't stop you from playing around with them and using them independent of the Elk.
Before you commit to a lighting system, you might just buy a couple switches from a few different technologies and manufacturers to see if you like them. The elk won't be able to talk to them of course until you get an inteface, but that won't stop you from playing around with them and using them independent of the Elk.
Lou,
So you agree with going RS-485 for thermostats as opposed to PLM / serial and Zwave-compatible thermostats?
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Also to note, the KP2 keypad has another actual flush-mount box available for a couple bucks - I use those for all mine. Also, I personally like using the SP12 speakers that mount behind the keypads - instead of a central speaker - but that requires another pair of wires run there. Also because I use that, I don't use the KPAS - I just use 3 keypads around the house (but I wouldn't mind a kpas by the back door).
Also if you're not doing multiple zones, I personally like the omnistats from HAI the best - especially the omnistat2 - but because I have a multi-zone system I went with the RCS 4-zone controller.
Also if you're not doing multiple zones, I personally like the omnistats from HAI the best - especially the omnistat2 - but because I have a multi-zone system I went with the RCS 4-zone controller.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Sorry man, I know nothing about thermostats. I have a Carrier Infinity system which is completely different.
I was talking about your light switches. Make sure you like the led look, the touch, the installation, that sort of stuff. Some of these are bulky and are tough to get in the gang boxes if yours aren't deep or if you have 12 g wire. I have Insteon and they are pretty small which makes life easier (it would have been easier yet if I hadn't had to replace them all secondary to previous QC issues).
UPB also has more than one manufacturer, so you may find you like one more than the other.
I don't know a lot about zwave. complaints I have heard include some compatibility issues from one manufacturer to another, and the fact that you can't physically move it around without screwing up your "mesh". No mesh issues with UPB/Insteon. The z-wave Elk linkage sounds like a no-go from my casual observations around here, but that may be a condition in flux. Zwave being wireless can hook up to mobile stuff, like door locks. Insteon can do that as well as they will talk with one particular brand of lock (forget which one). Not sure about UPB on that one. Zwave seems to be slowly getting integrated into a lot of different manufacturers stuff, so maybe it becomes more dominant in the future, hard to say.
I thought that omnistats are not rs-485 compatible, which would require M1XSP in addition to what I listed above?
How do you mount SP-12? Behind the keypad in the wall cavity? Could you please elaborate.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Just because the databus uses RS485, you won't be able to add an RS485 thermostat - it won't be able to talk on the Elk's network. You need an M1XSP regardless. The good news is generally one XSP can support multiple thermostats if you have more than one.
I use these recessed mount boxes - if you look at the picture there's a large keyhole shaped knockout - you punch that out... then with the SP12 you break off the plastic faceplate (there's just 4 melted plastic tabs through the screw holes) then screw it to where the knockout was. Since this is a recessed box it just fits inside the wall cavity. The standard surface-mount boxes have the same knockout, but they you'd have to have some sort of hole behind it for the magnet to hang into (like a 1-gang hole or something).
I use these recessed mount boxes - if you look at the picture there's a large keyhole shaped knockout - you punch that out... then with the SP12 you break off the plastic faceplate (there's just 4 melted plastic tabs through the screw holes) then screw it to where the knockout was. Since this is a recessed box it just fits inside the wall cavity. The standard surface-mount boxes have the same knockout, but they you'd have to have some sort of hole behind it for the magnet to hang into (like a 1-gang hole or something).
Boy, all these modules add up to some healthy $. I was hoping I could use RS-485 thermostat without any additional hardware.
drozwood90
Senior Member
For all of these reasons and more...that's why I use a dedicated PC. By putting something on there like...Homeseer (which I use) or CQC or Premise or (list goes on...sorry for leaving out the other 2 that I know of...but can't think of the names of), I can blend anything I want together. I have Z-Wave locks, thermostats and some modules. I use UPB for my lighting as well as most of my modules.
I tend to think of it as Z-Wave is the "X10" of the reliable world. From the stand point of they have lots of toys and accessories.
I only know of one UPB thermostat. Then there are light switches and modules. That's about it.
I think Insteon (correct me Lou) is about the same as UPB when it comes to TYPES of modules...but might have a few more (IR comes to mind).
Z-wave has a LOT. Way more than I can mention. Things like drapery controls, lighting, modules, Remotes, IR controllers, thermostats, Locks (Schlage / Kwickset / a few more in the pipeline), water shutoff valves, power monitoring modules / switches, motion/light level/temperature all-in-one sensors, etc. etc.
I tend to hit here:
http://www.z-wavealliance.org/modules/Products/
and
http://www.zwaveproducts.com/
and
http://store.homeseer.com/store/default.aspx
When I'm trying to see if it is worth my time to build something for my home, or just see if someone has MADE something.
After I decide I need/want something (instead of make), I tend to shop at Homeseer and Aartech's sites for Z-Wave stuff. For UPB it's Automated Outlet 100%. You just can't beat the service. I think both Aartech and AO are Cocoontech 5 star vendors. I'm not sure about Homeseer, but they are a good place to buy from.
I think the Elk has lots of offerings as well. Someone like Dan (Electron) could probably comment more, as I know he uses Elk with Homeseer.
--Dan
