Newbie.....Multiroom Home Audio

[felixrosbergen]

+1 on the pre-wire now recommendation (speaker wire from a central location via keypad to the speakers, keypad-wire (cat5) from same central location to keypad. Check the wiring 101 guide on this forum for the speaker wire size (can't remember).

With this setup you'll have all the flexibility you could ask for, then spend some time reading and learning and figure out what you want.

I'm a happy Nuvo user (E6G/TXFXG/Music Point). If you're looking for surround or something like that then these products may not be as suitable. Also look carefully into how this can interact with your current gear (it may replace some of it or it may integrate with some of it).

Best of luck...keep asking questions...oh and yes..pre-wire every room that you can't get into easily later (i.e. ground floor ceiling, etc)

 

[bucko]

Listen, just get the nuvo or russound and be done with it. No need to "roll your own" as its been said.
Most people on this forum love the work needed to do the job and the gratification that comes with it. You dont sound like that type (yet )
Take a look at line 4 in your OP and ask yourself if 2 sources is really gonna be enough?? (I'll answer to save time)
No its not. Dont limit yourself right from the start. Either of the two amps mentioned have 6 sources and 6 zones, so you can play 6 different sources in the 6 zones at the same time, one source per zone or the same source in all zones or any combo therein, so they would be the way to go.

Once you get an amp, the instruction manuals will explain everything. It's really very simple. You can go to either of their websites and DL the manual now so you know what is needed to be prewired.
Basically you run the cat to the keypads, then a speaker cable to each speaker you plan to place. No need for a four wire unless you plan on using dual coil speakers everywhere but keep in mind, a zone is typically one pair of speakers, so with dual coil you now need two zones for each room or put both coils on one "side" of each zone providing the amp is ok with the cut in ohms. Both mentioned amps will be ok. All cables will be "homerunned" to where ever your equipment will be located. Some will suggest you run the speaker cables through the keypad location for "future proofing". You can do this if you want but my opinion is the future will go forward, not backwards, so this is kinda unneeded I think.

I personally use a Nuvo amp and a Russound satellite tuner, both work together great with the Elve HA software controlling them.
Hope this helps and welcome to the never ending saga of HA!! You're gonna love it!

I'm also trying to set up whole house audio in my HA design. I will need 7 zones total. The Nuvo Essnetia says it does 6 zones. BUT I have a Denon 2895 AVR which has 2 zones with built in seperate amps. So in 1 zone (#7) can I utilize the Denon to supply the extra zone 7, thus saving some money on the Nuvo?? What will I lose if I do it this way? I think I will use iPads for wireless control. Is this possible?

 

[roussell]

Terry, sounds interesting. Why would you need an Ocelot? I'm using X10 wireless keychain controllers. Nice and small.
--Dan

I'd use the Ocelot with a SECU-16IR to send IR commands to each of the 7 Insignia NS-R2000 receivers. I have to have separate IR zones due to all of the receivers being the same. Are you saying that you're able to control a receiver with IR from an X10 keychain remote or am I missing something?

Terry,
Would like to hear more about your setup. I am wanting to make something similar with LIRC. Am using misterhouse for automation.
Am currently looking for cheap recievers/amps that have IR so I can control them. Any suggestions would be welcome.
Jim

I'll start a new thread/blog post with more details so as to not dilute the OP's thread but the plan is to have one box that acts as the MP3 & online music source and IR controller for all 7 receivers and is remotely controllable through TCP commands. I'm going to use two SB 7.1 Audigy PCI cards and split the channels into 8 separate stereo channels through Alsa and assign each stereo pair to a separate instance of MPD. Each Stereo pair will then connect to it's own Insignia receiver. As MPD is controllable through TCP, it'll be a simple matter to send commands from the HouseBot server to control each zones MPD instance.

As for IR, I'm torn with using LIRC and creating an eight-channel transmitter using the PC's parallel port or creating a multi-channel IR transmitter with a Basic Stamp or Picaxe microcontroller. I'm playing with both methods to see which one floats to the top first. The biggest problem I'm having is that I can find NO documentation on the IR protocol used by the Insignia receiver. No Pronto codes, no LIRC config, nothing on the web... nothing. I'm using an oscilloscope and one of the remotes to map out the protocol manually. As best as I can tell, it's a modified version of the NEC protocol, except that the bits aren't inverted on the second transmission and it doesn't send the "repeat" bit but instead simply repeats the entire transmission every ~108ms. Under the Insignia nameplate the receiver is essentially the same as the Sherwood RX-4109 but I've been unable to find any documentation for Sherwood's protocol for that unit either. If anybody knows anything about these units I'd love some enlightenment.

With the exception of the wonky IR stuff, this is a great little stereo receiver. They've been discontinued so you can find new versions on clearance at Best Buy for $79-$99. I bought all of mine used/refurbed from eBay from "CowBoom" which I believe is BestBuy's outlet store. The nice thing about them is that they have discrete power on and off commands, separate bass and treble controls and separate selectors for A and B speakers all on the remote which opens up a lot of possibilities with automation through IR.

Terry

 

[nexus99]

I did a DIY project (still underway actually) for my WHA. This is what I did... you can use it as a spring board for what you choose to do.

My goal was 6 zones of audio with 6 different inputs.

I went with a Russound CAM 6.6 with keypads.
The wiring for this is pretty simple.

CAT 5 to each location for keypad connectivity.
4 conductor speaker wire to each room for speker power.

These cables home runned back to my CAM 6.6 that sits in my entertainment center.

I have a Russound ST2 dual AM/FM tuner taking up 2 of the inputs.
I have Casatunes installed on my WHS that steams a MP3 feed to a Barix box connected the to the CAM for serial control and the MP3 feed. I use CasaTunes so I can have iPhone control of my CAM6.6.
I still have 3 inputs available. I will probably add 1 or 2 more MP3 inputs from the CasaTuns server and an iPhone dock in the future.

In the future I will also look to add another CAM6.6 so I can have 12 total zones. This will allow me to have a zone in pretty much each room of my home. Or I will just rip out the CAM and go with something new and cool I have a couple of thousand in the Cam system so I might just use it till it dies though.

 

[tmbrown97]

JWilson - I don't want to hijack the thread, but just out of curiosity - have you ever plugged a kill-a-watt into your audio rack to see what kind of wattage it draws? On the surface that's what makes me cringe at the thought; I know many people are trying to make their HA systems a little more "green". The Nuvo E6G claims 1 watt standby, 70 watts average with the whole system going.

I'm not opposed to doing something like what you did; I found myself going a similar route on a much smaller scale years ago when I was able to buy a full kenwood receiver for $50, vs. a standard 2-channel amp for $300; so I daisy chained receivers for a few rooms and outdoors, then bought an RF remote. Worked great!

Unfortunately, I'm 1) in Cali where power costs a friggin' fortune; and 2) a bit lazy at times - so I've been looking at the Nuvo purely because the keypads are sexy, and it's a pretty simple-looking* install without days/weeks of config (*in theory) - and the 1watt on standby is awesome. Not to mention, I can set an Elk rule that powers the system off when the alarm goes Armed Away still without requiring a controller PC on 24/7. That's simplicity.

 

[sam9s]

Listen, just get the nuvo or russound and be done with it. No need to "roll your own" as its been said.
Most people on this forum love the work needed to do the job and the gratification that comes with it. You dont sound like that type (yet )
Take a look at line 4 in your OP and ask yourself if 2 sources is really gonna be enough?? (I'll answer to save time)
No its not. Dont limit yourself right from the start. Either of the two amps mentioned have 6 sources and 6 zones, so you can play 6 different sources in the 6 zones at the same time, one source per zone or the same source in all zones or any combo therein, so they would be the way to go.

Once you get an amp, the instruction manuals will explain everything. It's really very simple. You can go to either of their websites and DL the manual now so you know what is needed to be prewired.
Basically you run the cat to the keypads, then a speaker cable to each speaker you plan to place. No need for a four wire unless you plan on using dual coil speakers everywhere but keep in mind, a zone is typically one pair of speakers, so with dual coil you now need two zones for each room or put both coils on one "side" of each zone providing the amp is ok with the cut in ohms. Both mentioned amps will be ok. All cables will be "homerunned" to where ever your equipment will be located. Some will suggest you run the speaker cables through the keypad location for "future proofing". You can do this if you want but my opinion is the future will go forward, not backwards, so this is kinda unneeded I think.

I personally use a Nuvo amp and a Russound satellite tuner, both work together great with the Elve HA software controlling them.
Hope this helps and welcome to the never ending saga of HA!! You're gonna love it!

Ok I am open fro NuVo or Russound route, if they are not exorbitantly priced. Which model of both you would suggest to go for.
About source, the only reason I was limiting myself for 2 sources was it the setup becomes bit complicated by adding every extra source, but if the amps themselves have 6 source option, we might as well go for it.........

I will visit the website for the models you suggest and see how the wiring has been done. Thanks for the input, picture has started to become more clearer.......

Regards
Sammy

 

[sam9s]

Well any DIY setup will seem complicated at first. The thing is to start simple and build upon it. Basics is a PC with multiple sound cards (Delta 410 and/or USB sound devices) and JRMC that supports multiple zones. These feed cheap independent stereo receivers. After that you can use a number of software solutions to control it.

If you have the money then sure go ahead and pay for a Nuvo if you can afford it but you will still be getting a steeper learning curve with whatever software you use (CQC, Homeseer, Elve or Promixis). If you think running wire for keypads is easier then using a GUI interface on touchscreens with WIFI then go for it. I love to be able to browse my CD library with a touchscreen and control any of my six independent zones from any screen.

As for PC power... my P4 is a bit dated but since it uses less then 25% CPU playing all six zones at the same time I have had no reason to upgrade.

Also lets not forget that my setup also handles a dozen other home automation functions and was developed over a period of time.

If you want to chat come to the IRC chatroom and look me up (JohnW)

If I understand correctly you are saying that PC based multiroom audio system would cost much less than NuVo based.
When you say cheap independent stereo receivers do you mean Technics SA-EX..??....
On paper running wires for keypads sounds less complicated and expensive than GUI interphase with wifi.........is it the other way round...??

I know so many questions but gradually I assure you I am gonna grasp everything.....

I love to chat as the learning curve is much faster, which IRC chatroom are you talking about here......

Regards
Sammy

 

[sam9s]

Diagram of Nuvo Grand Concerto wiring

http://www.nuvotechnologies.com/prozone/pd...tem_Diagram.pdf

That's will all the added devices, like external antennas, ipod dock, and accesory amps.

For CEA 2030, the speaker cables are run inside the wall to pass through the keypad location so that the speaker cable can be cut there, as some keypads control the volume directly. This is the method used in A-Bus systems, in which an amp is located within the keypad, instead of at the 'head end'. Alternatively, simple cheap volume controls could be used instead of a keypad.

So, if you go with CEA 2030, you'll be able to install the vast majority of currently offered systems. But, if you decide now what system you want, you may be able to skip the looping of the speaker cable through the keypad location.

Several manufacturers offer A-Bus systems, with small amps in the keypads. With these systems, the 'line level' audio signal is passed to the keypad via catx, and the amp in the keypad amplifies the signal, and passes it to the speakers. Audiophiles tend to avoid these, as the amps typically aren't great (low wattage). But, for background music, many people find them perfect.

Some builders won't let you run your own LV cables. What does your builder say? Will you have the local pro custom installer run your cables, and then you install the system yourself after you move in?

Thanks for the Link Neurorad, the diagram seems simple, What is an EZ port, and are those all Keypads going in to the EZ Port???. EZ port has all the CAT 5 coming from their amps I can figure that............ The diagram that you have shared, is it all that needs to be done???
Also why do we have 2 extra amps powering zone 7,8. Whats the point of this.......

My builder would wont mind anything, I can ask him to do what ever wiring that needs to be done. Its still a couple of months before this has to happen so I have enough time to plan, decide and execute, ofcourse with the help of Audio Gurus here

 

[sam9s]

I did a DIY project (still underway actually) for my WHA. This is what I did... you can use it as a spring board for what you choose to do.

My goal was 6 zones of audio with 6 different inputs.

I went with a Russound CAM 6.6 with keypads.
The wiring for this is pretty simple.

CAT 5 to each location for keypad connectivity.
4 conductor speaker wire to each room for speker power.

These cables home runned back to my CAM 6.6 that sits in my entertainment center.

I have a Russound ST2 dual AM/FM tuner taking up 2 of the inputs.
I have Casatunes installed on my WHS that steams a MP3 feed to a Barix box connected the to the CAM for serial control and the MP3 feed. I use CasaTunes so I can have iPhone control of my CAM6.6.
I still have 3 inputs available. I will probably add 1 or 2 more MP3 inputs from the CasaTuns server and an iPhone dock in the future.

In the future I will also look to add another CAM6.6 so I can have 12 total zones. This will allow me to have a zone in pretty much each room of my home. Or I will just rip out the CAM and go with something new and cool I have a couple of thousand in the Cam system so I might just use it till it dies though.

nexus, your setup seems good and simple, do you have a diagrammatic representation of you layout.........it helps to understand the structure very clearly.....

What is WHS and I suppose Casatunes is some sort of streaming software for Audio. Barix Box must be a server. Need some more light on this part....seems interesting....

Thanks for all your input

With this I atleast now know that I have to run CAT5/6 to Keypads and 4 conductor spk wires to spk locations........

I am glad I joined this fourm

 

[roussell]

If you're leaning toward a single-box solution like Russound or Nuvo, have a look at Breathe Audio's BA-6640MS 6 Source 6 Zone System. It comes with all six keypads, has an rs232 port for control (with a simple, published protocol). I think I remember reading that the unit is made by, or the company is part of Nuvo but don't quote me on that.

I almost went with this before deciding on a setup like JWilson's. The best price I found was at OutDoorSpeakerDepot.com for only $850 including all six keypads.

The things that made me lean toward the multi receiver setup was the higher power (~100W vs 30-40W) available at each zone, sub-zone capability (through the a-b speaker selector), separate AM/FM tuner with 30 presets at each zone, and the the low price sealed the deal. I paid less than $300 for all 7 receivers, about 1/3 the price of the BreatheAudio unit, (which is much cheaper than the Russound or Nuvos).

Terry

 

[roussell]

JWilson - I don't want to hijack the thread, but just out of curiosity - have you ever plugged a kill-a-watt into your audio rack to see what kind of wattage it draws? On the surface that's what makes me cringe at the thought; I know many people are trying to make their HA systems a little more "green". The Nuvo E6G claims 1 watt standby, 70 watts average with the whole system going.

I'm not opposed to doing something like what you did; I found myself going a similar route on a much smaller scale years ago when I was able to buy a full kenwood receiver for $50, vs. a standard 2-channel amp for $300; so I daisy chained receivers for a few rooms and outdoors, then bought an RF remote. Worked great!

Unfortunately, I'm 1) in Cali where power costs a friggin' fortune; and 2) a bit lazy at times - so I've been looking at the Nuvo purely because the keypads are sexy, and it's a pretty simple-looking* install without days/weeks of config (*in theory) - and the 1watt on standby is awesome. Not to mention, I can set an Elk rule that powers the system off when the alarm goes Armed Away still without requiring a controller PC on 24/7. That's simplicity.

I just tested my Insignia's with a Kill-A-Watt, I'd imagine JWilson's to be similar:

Standby: 0 Watts (the current would slowly bounce between .01 and .00 amps so maybe .005 amps when in standby so ~.6Watts)
Power on Volume all the way down: 20 Watts
Power on Volume at normal listening setting: 24 Watts
Power on Volume about half-way up: 41 Watts (Note this was pretty loud and we don't normally listen at this level unless there is a party)
Power on Volume way up (about 3/4): 82 Watts This is way louder than we would listen to it unless it's a really good song and the wife isn't home. I didn't try louder because the speakers connected to it ATM are only rated for 60 Watts.

This nice thing is that if we're not listening to a zone, then that receivers zone will be in Standby so will be using practically no power. There is a hard-off button on the units if we wish to kill all power for vacations or other extended-off times.

Terry

 

[jwilson56]

Like roussell mentioned... any zone not being used is off so it draws essentially no power. However I also like that I have 100 watts RMS for each channel as I am not into elevator quality music and want something that will produce high fidelity sound.

All in all I love my setup and it cost a fraction of a multizone system

 

[sam9s]

If you're leaning toward a single-box solution like Russound or Nuvo, have a look at Breathe Audio's BA-6640MS 6 Source 6 Zone System. It comes with all six keypads, has an rs232 port for control (with a simple, published protocol). I think I remember reading that the unit is made by, or the company is part of Nuvo but don't quote me on that.

I almost went with this before deciding on a setup like JWilson's. The best price I found was at OutDoorSpeakerDepot.com for only $850 including all six keypads.

The things that made me lean toward the multi receiver setup was the higher power (~100W vs 30-40W) available at each zone, sub-zone capability (through the a-b speaker selector), separate AM/FM tuner with 30 presets at each zone, and the the low price sealed the deal. I paid less than $300 for all 7 receivers, about 1/3 the price of the BreatheAudio unit, (which is much cheaper than the Russound or Nuvos).

Terry

@roussell, Breathaudio is'nt available where I am situated (New Delhi). NuVo and Russound are, but alas, their price is way over the top. I searched a bit more and found out a product by a company called HAI (Home Automation inc). Its call Hi Fi by HAI and is almost in the same price league as Breathaudio and is available here as well. Check it out ...

http://www.homeauto.com/Products/WholeHome...leHomeAudio.asp

Are you (or anybody else on this forum) aware of this product

After the product is decided, I would just need some more guidance on the initial wiring part, and I would be done (for now) I would probably need some more help when I would practically be putting up the wires (in just couple of months)

I would also like to share more products available at my location so that you all might be able to help to decide more precisely,....

http://myeloka.eloka.net/GoGreen/Products/...mdSearch=Search


Regards
Sammy

 

[Neurorad]

It seems that Eloka will work out all of the details for you.

 

[sam9s]

It seems that Eloka will work out all of the details for you.

They are offering a complete package, but as I said, I have a feeling its seriously over priced. Thats is why I wanted to go DIY way. You know....... get the equipment and do the installation part by yourself...........Am I expecting too much....