omni iie with upb. help please.

[lvmikel]

Pete,
 
I saw some other posts of yours where you had installed a Leviton repeater.
You also posted some before and after pics of your signals.
 
My question is....will my PCS repeater I just bought amplify the signal where the PIM and the switch are on the SAME phase?
The docs say that it retransmits on both legs....but then I see other posts from people saying it helps only on the opposite leg from where the signal was sent.
 
Does anybody know the answer to the question?
 
FYI...all my stuff is Gen III HAI switches.

 

[ano]

No, they only repeat on the opposite phase. If your signal is not getting through on the SAME phase, you have other problems the repeater won't help with.

 

[lvmikel]

Ano,
 
I cut and pasted from the SPR Manual below.
Am I just reading it wrong?
I bolded the area that is throwing me off...
Thanks!
 
The Split-Phase Repeater is the next level in solving UPB™ powerline communication problems. Rather than just allowing UPB™ signals to pass through it (and suffering some signal attenuation) – as a Passive Phase Coupler does, the SPR receives the complete UPB™ message and actively re-transmits it onto both legs of the powerline (see Figure 6). This results in very strong UPB™ signals that exist on both legs of the powerline.

No, they only repeat on the opposite phase. If your signal is not getting through on the SAME phase, you have other problems the repeater won't help with.

 

[pete_c]

This is where you connect your spare UPB controller to a laptop and utilize Upstart to look at your signal levels on your newly installed UPB switches.

 

[ano]

Ano,
 
I cut and pasted from the SPR Manual below.
Am I just reading it wrong?
I bolded the area that is throwing me off...
Thanks!
 
The Split-Phase Repeater is the next level in solving UPB™ powerline communication problems. Rather than just allowing UPB™ signals to pass through it (and suffering some signal attenuation) – as a Passive Phase Coupler does, the SPR receives the complete UPB™ message and actively re-transmits it onto both legs of the powerline (see Figure 6). This results in very strong UPB™ signals that exist on both legs of the powerline.

 
It sounds like from that text it does, but maybe its just not possible to see that using UPStart.  If that is correct, signals received from either side are likely repeated on both sides simultaneously.  This would mean there is a real then repeated signal and what would UPStart report? I don't know.
 
If the signal WAS repeated on the SAME phase, would it really matter?  There are really only three things that prevent UPB signals going through. 1) Noise at the switch so the switch can't hear the signal, 2) a signal sucker device near the switch filtering the signal, and 3) a lack of a good connection between phases. A repeated signal on the SAME phase really wouldn't change ANY of these, and on the OPPOSITE phase it would only help with #3.
 
If your signal is weak on the SAME phase, you have problem #1 or problem #2 and a repeater, even if it repeats on the same phase or not, likely won't help the problem much anyway, if at all.

 

[pete_c]

I am curious as to the outcome of this endeavour.
 
Here I never really look at my UPB stuff anymore.  
 
That said your stuff got me adding one UPB appliance switch and looking at my Upstart signals.
 
Initially though started the endeavour by initially putting the appliance module in programming mode.  I used my desktop in the home office plugged into a serial SA UPB PIM.  (2nd floor of the two story home).  I then looked remotely at the switch from different UPB PIMs in semi static places in the house.  (IE: laptops or serial servers) placing the UPB PIMs on the two phases and saw good signals. (well some over 100%).
 
I did also build a tiny widget that will be plugged into this appliance switch and put the concoction of widget and appliance switch in the attic.
 
That said it works just fine in the attic.  IE: signals validated with Upstart were fine through out the home.  The one that "counted" to the Leviton OPII panel connected to a PIM close to the fuse panel worked fine also.

 

[lvmikel]

All...just so everyone understands that is reading this thread...everything is working in my house.

By troubleshooting and asking questions...i am trying to get to a much deeper understanding of this upb technology. I am an IT person by trade and just cant help myself.

So i have the unanswered question of does a repeater repeat in both phases or 1. I will get my repeater in tuesday and will post the results. Its not about will it make a difference at this point...its understanding exactly what it does. I have been told by everyone it repeats on only the opposite side it receives from but the instructions say differently. I just need to know.

I also spent the whole day flipping breakers on and off to get a better understanding of what is causing my signal loss when the pim and switches are on the same phase. What i found is the folliwing:

1. I have some arc fault breakers...they are not on the same phase of the pim and switches. But when the circuits are switched off, i get about a 5 point gain in the upstart displayed signal.

2. I have a few plug in the wall black and decker bug repellers. Supposed to emit a sound to repel bugs. Pulled them and got a 2 signal gain.

3. Wine fridge on the same phase as the pim and switches. 2 to 3 point signal drain.

4. Smoke detectors....3 point signal drain.

The biggest culprit are the arc fault breakers....not sure what i can do about those as they are code.

Its just strage that when i put the pim on the opposite phase as the switches that the signals are better.

Off to do more troubleshooting...

 

[pete_c]

Good to know Mike. 
 
It is a good learning experience and the questions that you ask are part of that learning experience.  As stated the "proof is in the pudding" of what you do and what you see.  Many of us here today using the UPB power line protocol have done similiar to you.
 

I have some arc fault breakers...they are not on the same phase of the pim and switches.

 
I have seen this with a friend DIYing / automating his pool stuff in his poolhouse with the use of a sub panel.  Actually caused more issues relating to the pool pump than the automation switch.

 

[neillt]

I am surprised the AFCI breakers are causing issues.  My house (built in 2012) has a whole subpanel of them and I don't have any issues at all.
 
Is it possible there is something past the breakers that could be causing the signal drain?  Or are these branch circuits completely empty?

 

[lvmikel]

Neillt,
 
I am not sure if I would say that the Arc Fault breakers are causing a problem...everything still works fine.
What I DO notice is that when I flip the breakers off, my signal levels rise up.
 
And those breakers feed my wall outlets in the bedrooms and I pulled ALL the plugs from the outlets when testing this.
Best guess I can come up with is that when those breakers are live, it opens up a lot more wire for the signal to travel through and that may be a cause for the signal decrease...
 

I am surprised the AFCI breakers are causing issues.  My house (built in 2012) has a whole subpanel of them and I don't have any issues at all.
 
Is it possible there is something past the breakers that could be causing the signal drain?  Or are these branch circuits completely empty?

 

[pete_c]

What I DO notice is that when I flip the breakers off, my signal levels rise up.

 
How much do the signal levels rise / fall? 
 
A little bit will not affect your UPB lighting.  If the signal goes to zero and / or you get a bunch of noise and your switches don't work; then it becomes an issue.  I know here though using the UPB signal repeater pushes the signals way up (more than 100%). I haven't read anything about physical distances of the UPB power line switches coverage. 
 
Here all of the bedrooms are configured with the right outlet on each outlet going to a wall switch (I have switched a few to non switched outlets).  Historically I have had issues with this methodology of electrical wiring.  The electrician also put in two load wires to the ceiling for ceiling fans / lights making the wall switch boxes carry three switched loads.

 

[lvmikel]

Signal levels rise about 5 points on the signal scale when the breakers are turned off. I am referring to the signal levels between my PIM and switches.
Also, the ARC breakers are on the opposite phase of both the PIM and the switches.
There is 0 noise regardless of whether the ARC breakers are on or off. That is the one fortunate thing I have going.
 
I get my PCS repeater today...and I already did all the wiring and rough in over the weekend in preparation for it.
Three wire nut connections tonight and I will know if the split phase repeater makes a difference or not.
 
My wiring is similar to yours, 1 switched outlet in each room and it is on the ARC breaker.
My dual load for ceiling fan operation is also in each room, but it is on a non ARC breaker and doesn't effect my signal levels.
Only the wall outlets are on ARC breakers.
 

How much do the signal levels rise / fall? 
 
A little bit will not affect your UPB lighting.  If the signal goes to zero and / or you get a bunch of noise and your switches don't work; then it becomes an issue.  I know here though using the UPB signal repeater pushes the signals way up (more than 100%). I haven't read anything about physical distances of the UPB power line switches coverage. 
 
Here all of the bedrooms are configured with the right outlet on each outlet going to a wall switch (I have switched a few to non switched outlets).  Historically I have had issues with this methodology of electrical wiring.  The electrician also put in two load wires to the ceiling for ceiling fans / lights making the wall switch boxes carry three switched loads.

 

[pete_c]

5 points is nada unless that takes you to zero.  Wait until you see what the PCS UPB repeater does for you.  No noise is a good thing.  
 
I am very optimistic you will be OK with you UPB stuff. 

 

[ano]

I have heard of early AFCI breakers causing some signal problems, but when i installed them in my last house, I didn't see any signal level changes. I will be installing them in my new house as well, so we shall see.
 
As Pete says, signal levels don't make any difference at all as long as they are over 5 or 6. Everything changes things a bit including everything you plug into your outlet that day. Just like every water valve in your house cuts down the pressure a bit, but if your water pressure is fine at the output, then it makes no difference. Did you remove all your shutoff valves because each drops your pressure a bit? Probably not. I wouldn't worry about your breakers either unless they are bringing your signal levels below 6.

 

[lvmikel]

OK everyone...I just installed my PCS split phase repeater.
Unbelievable.
 
Just to recap...so you don't have to reread through the thread...
My PIM and my switches are on the SAME phase.
My signal at the switches was around 4 - 6.... my signal at the pim was around 8-10.
 
All the comments I received was that the repeater would only repeat on the opposite phase that it received on.
I can tell you that it's not true.
The documentation is correct that it transmits on both phases.
 
My signals are now 45 - 48 at the switch and 89 at the PIM.
Major, major improvements.