Prewired in '2000 - How bad did I screw up?

[IndyMike]

Gentlemen,

I'm in need of advice on whether my existing pre-wire will work with the ELK-M1.

Question 1:
While in a rush to complete the security wiring back in 2000, I screwed up and ran standard 22/4 (not CAT5E) to 4 locations for security keypads. All locations are wired as home runs.

After reviewing the M1 documentation, it looks like I can get around the Keypad daisy chain/buss termination requirements by using the M1DBH data bus hub (expensive mistake).

Now I'm worried about interference using the 22/4 for the RS-485 communication. What are my chances here? I was at least careful to separate the 22/4 from the house wiring, but I would like to the the M1KPas in 2 locations (triple gang boxes with standard switches adjacent). I'm in the process of finishing the basement and will be loosing what little access I have. Is this a reasonable risk, or should I get out the drywall saw?

Question 2:
While all of my entry points are currently wired (open/close) I would like to add Lock confirmation.

Entry points include:

• 4 steel doors (deadbolt monitoring)
• 1 steel double door (center latching deadbolt - RF?)
• 2 - Pella Sliders (Latch monitor)
• 1 - Pella Double Slider (center latching - monitor foot latches?)

I ordered one of the following Inductive sensors to play with: Inductive Sensor
I'm curious whether anyone has previously tackled the problem of deadbolt/latch monitoring. In particular, my workshop is located beneath the garage (10" thick reinforced concrete walls and pre-stressed concrete ceiling. Is there an approach for interfacing the above sensor to a ELK compatible RF transmitter?

Thanks in advance,
IM

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

For your first question, 22/4 wiring will work for the keypads. Since you homeran them just use the DBHR (Data Base Hub Retrofit) which is the second product down in that link.

 

[WayneW]

You should have no problems with the M1DBHR, which is meant for retrofits with older 22/4 wiring. Mine works fine.

Sorry, no experience with deadbolt sensing other than a very ugly (but useful) standard mag switch glued to the deadbolt knob in my garage.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

For your second question, HERE is a post where a member used a "plunger sensor" to monitor a deadbolt.

 

[IndyMike]

BraveSirRobbin and Wayne,

Thank you for the quick replies on the 22/4 compatibility. You should have been able to hear the sigh of relief from this end. I was not looking forward to explaining to the "Boss" why first and second floor walls needed refinishing.

BSR - thanks for the link on the plunger sensor. This would work in some locations. Unfortunately my front door has sidelites (not enough room for a plunger) and my center latched slider/steel swinger present other problems. At present, the slider is at the top of the list since I'll be loosing access from the basement.

The Pella sliders use foot latches (circled in the photo below) as a security latch. I'm hoping to use the Inductive sensor that I linked to previously to sense the position of the latch. If anyone sees an easier approach, I'm all ears.

IM

 

[polarbear44]

I just finished with a few experiments over the weekend on the subject of lock status.

I too have been looking for something that will provide a status for a deadbolt lock. The most obvious would be to use a
reed sensor in the door jamb, but even the smallest flush mount sensors have relatively HUGE magnets. Certainly too big
to place inside the deadbolt without destroying the integrity of the steel bolt.

A little bit of web searching, I stumbled upon the Lee Valley website (http://www.leevalley.com), which has a large selection of rare earth magnets of various shapes, sizes and strengths.
I took a $20 gamble (#$%$ Canadian taxes) and got their 50 piece magnet sampler.
These magnets are incredibly strong!!!

With some experimentation on the bench, I found that even the smallest one, a 1/8 by 1/8 rod, would trigger the reed switch
at a distance of about 1/4 inch. (maybe 3/16). I also read that magnetic field would be stronger if a metal object is behind it, as it would be on the end of a deadbolt.

Soooo, I drilled a 1/8 hole in the end of the deadbolt, to a depth of 1/8 inch, and epoxied the tiny magnet into the hole.
Mounted a flush reed switch into the base of the jamb hole, and after about 1/2 hour of work, had a very functional deadbolt sensor.

I was so juiced that it worked, that I went ahead and did a similar job on the patio sliding door latch. The magnet used is so small, that it fit perfectly onto the end of the wee retracting hook in the door. Put a flush mount sensor in the jamb latch up under where the hook grabs, and it worked a charm too!

Definitely worth considering, given the small amount of time it took. The longest part is waiting for the drill to get into the hardened steel, which is veerry slow, even for a 1/8 hole

 

[sic0048]

I just finished with a few experiments over the weekend on the subject of lock status.

I too have been looking for something that will provide a status for a deadbolt lock. The most obvious would be to use a
reed sensor in the door jamb, but even the smallest flush mount sensors have relatively HUGE magnets. Certainly too big
to place inside the deadbolt without destroying the integrity of the steel bolt.

A little bit of web searching, I stumbled upon the Lee Valley website (http://www.leevalley.com), which has a large selection of rare earth magnets of various shapes, sizes and strengths.
I took a $20 gamble (#$%$ Canadian taxes) and got their 50 piece magnet sampler.
These magnets are incredibly strong!!!

With some experimentation on the bench, I found that even the smallest one, a 1/8 by 1/8 rod, would trigger the reed switch
at a distance of about 1/4 inch. (maybe 3/16). I also read that magnetic field would be stronger if a metal object is behind it, as it would be on the end of a deadbolt.

Soooo, I drilled a 1/8 hole in the end of the deadbolt, to a depth of 1/8 inch, and epoxied the tiny magnet into the hole.
Mounted a flush reed switch into the base of the jamb hole, and after about 1/2 hour of work, had a very functional deadbolt sensor.

I was so juiced that it worked, that I went ahead and did a similar job on the patio sliding door latch. The magnet used is so small, that it fit perfectly onto the end of the wee retracting hook in the door. Put a flush mount sensor in the jamb latch up under where the hook grabs, and it worked a charm too!

Definitely worth considering, given the small amount of time it took. The longest part is waiting for the drill to get into the hardened steel, which is veerry slow, even for a 1/8 hole

Pictures please

I can grasp the deadbolt idea pretty well, but I'd love to see how you mounted the reed switch. I'd also love to see pictures of the sliding door setup. I'm not sure exactly how you mounted the magnet on the "hook" part of the locking mechanism.

 

[mustangcoupe]

The longest part is waiting for the drill to get into the hardened steel, which is veerry slow, even for a 1/8 hole

Any chance that a dab of two-part epoxy would work? no need to drill the lock.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

The longest part is waiting for the drill to get into the hardened steel, which is veerry slow, even for a 1/8 hole

Any chance that a dab of two-part epoxy would work? no need to drill the lock.

Just guessing, but I don't think it would clear the door jam as it would stick out beyond the door's 'edge'.

 

[polarbear44]

In my haste to get it done, I neglected to take pictures of work in progress.
I will try to supply decent pictures of the finished work tonite.

Epoxy alone would likely work, but for me it was more like "insurance". I don't tend to trust the long term bonding of any glue, particularly with metal. The glue was probably not necessary, because the magnet firmly stuck itself into the drilled hole in the deadbolt. I would recommend drilling a hole to allow for flush fit anyways. A 1/8 hole would not compromise the strength of the deadbolt in any way.

The sliding door was a little trickier because the hook was so small, and had a weird path of travel from the recess in the door. The sensor in the jamb was a little more straightforward, but I did have to remove the jamb mounted "hook receiver thingy" from the door jamb, and drill it out from the back in order to position it to the correct location for where the door hook rests in the locked position.

I know that probably doesn't explain things very well, so I'll take some pictures and put them up when I get home.

 

[IndyMike]

Epoxy alone would likely work, but for me it was more like "insurance". I don't tend to trust the long term bonding of any glue, particularly with metal. The glue was probably not necessary, because the magnet firmly stuck itself into the drilled hole in the deadbolt. I would recommend drilling a hole to allow for flush fit anyways. A 1/8 hole would not compromise the strength of the deadbolt in any way.

The sliding door was a little trickier because the hook was so small, and had a weird path of travel from the recess in the door. The sensor in the jamb was a little more straightforward, but I did have to remove the jamb mounted "hook receiver thingy" from the door jamb, and drill it out from the back in order to position it to the correct location for where the door hook rests in the locked position.

I know that probably doesn't explain things very well, so I'll take some pictures and put them up when I get home.

Actually, your description fits my slider latch to a "T". I'd be very interested in a photo of how you attached the magnet to the latch.

Thanks,
IM

 

[tmbrown97]

I do love the idea - we've certainly left the doors unlocked enough times... but dayam that sounds like a lot of work!!!

I can't wait until there's some sort of wireless solution that'll let it accurately report status and allow you to lock/unlock. I know about the schlage one, but it just doesn't seem like it's all the way there...

 

[Photon]

To detect my deadbolt, I've had good success with a reinforced deadbolt strike from Home Depot MAG Strike. It is much stronger than the plate that came with the deadbolt, and it is rather roomy. I suspended a hinged flapper inside with a magnet on the flapper. When the deadbolt extends into the pocket, it swings the flap up near a Tane Micro Contact.