Prewiring: Share your tips and tricks!
- Thread starter beelzerob
- Start date
beelzerob
Senior Member
Ya, that annoyed me to...I did the "request" thing online (and I don't normally EVER do that), and was pleased when they responded the next day.
I will say this....since I've been conversing with him about prices, I've noticed they've fluctuated quite a bit...usually down. So I'm wondering if either the price of wire really changes that rapidly and often (which would make putting on the website more trouble than it'd be worth), or if he's just cutting me a bigger and bigger break as I tell him I need more and more.
Either way...he beats local prices by hundreds for me.
Steve
Senior Member
The price of copper changes daily and Keystone fluctuates with it. Usually lately it has been UP. I first purchased a box of 1000' of Cat5 for like $55 and last box was like $75. The thing with Keystone is they buy alot of the wire in bulk from overseas, it is not your typical name brand (Belkin, etc) already prepackaged from the manufacturer. For alot of wire they actually get it on humongous rolls and cut and box it themselves. I know many people need to stick with brand names, but to me copper is copper, as long as it meets the same specifications - like RG6QS swept to 3Ghz, etc. I have used alot of their Cat5, 22 ga, RG6QS and 14/4 speaker wire and have not ever had a problem, other than a kink or two in the RG6 which was easily resolved. But their cables are available in lots of colors and also has foot markings, etc as well as being available in several formats like box, speedwrap, spool, etc. When I needed just a little extra 14/4 then even cut the 500' roll in half for me for just a small surcharge - saved me at least $100.
I typically like things right there online too, but they would need a full time staff to keep up with changing things on the web. But they are pleasant and a simple phone call will get you all the info you need.
I typically like things right there online too, but they would need a full time staff to keep up with changing things on the web. But they are pleasant and a simple phone call will get you all the info you need.
murphy
Member
This is definately NOT necessary.
BTW: what is HV? 2x115 Volt AC? Even at 20 kV AV you have proper insulation if it not running as blanc wires from pole to pole. Inside a house you usually have 400 V AC as a maximum. Which is also no problem. Even if this line is for a real power-machine (which needs high currents while starting). It is not the high voltage, but the current which is causing induction.
Put the "HV" line in an extra run. The signalwire (TV-koax, phone, CAT5 ...) can run parallel the next inch ... if at least one run (power OR signal) is twisted.
And also the angle of crossings does not matter if it is a right angle or any other amount. It is only a good habit let the wires running vertical or horizontal AND have good notes about the locations where they are running.
There is no real influence between cables as long as one line has twisted wires. That is the reason, why cables have twisted wires. Normaly the signal-wires are twisted AND the power is slightly twisted (except flat cables).
BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
High Voltage is usually the term to discern regular AC wiring from other types such as security wiring, networking wiring, audio/video, etc... Yes, the term may seem strange to those used to other electronic curriculums.
My opinion (read MY opinion which means it may not be correct
) is you just don't know what devices are going to be run on your AC system (i.e. high current/noise producing) so it's a good idea to keep the "high voltage" separate from the "low voltage". The "Cross at 90 Degrees" minimizes their crossed surface area contact of the high voltage line next to the low voltage line. In other words, if they "have" to touch/cross keep their surface areas of contacts to a minimum (other than that I see no real magic about the 90 degrees practice).
Again, JMO! :huh:
My opinion (read MY opinion which means it may not be correct
) is you just don't know what devices are going to be run on your AC system (i.e. high current/noise producing) so it's a good idea to keep the "high voltage" separate from the "low voltage". The "Cross at 90 Degrees" minimizes their crossed surface area contact of the high voltage line next to the low voltage line. In other words, if they "have" to touch/cross keep their surface areas of contacts to a minimum (other than that I see no real magic about the 90 degrees practice).Again, JMO! :huh:
murphy
Member
Yes, from the point of possible accidents, that may be right. Any household-(HV)-equipment may have a shortage and any fuse can fail. Therefore I always run cables inside tubes/pipes, partly that blue flexible stuff. I omit guidance pipes for wires only where I can access it all the time without fairings. In my case that is only in my pumphouse and 2 installation rooms.
Normaly the electrical insulation is realy tested and safe. But not always: when it comes to scrubing/scouring due to any possible vibration: the wind, regular door shutting, vibration from fans, washing-machines or what ever. This can deteriote insulation. For any reasons the fire-insurance of a house is expensive. And I have none.
There is another reason for pipes and tubes, at least for me: I'm not perfect and sooner or later I always had any add-on or any replacement. This is also possible without extra fairing, but not so easy.
BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
I was speaking from more of a noise isolation issue than electrical insulation breakdown.
murphy
Member
Dont be afraid about noise. Noise is not a problem as long as the signal-wires OR the power-wiring are at least slighty twisted. Mostly both are twisted. More: CAT5 is "double twisted": each pair and all the 4 pairs.
An exemption is a USB-connection and also a RS485 connection:
Here any twist of the wires is not necessary. Why? Because the signals on the data-wires are transmitted symetrical opposed. And the receivers are only determing the difference-voltage of both wires.
Now, a USB-connection is only designed for rather short distances, mostly inside one room. But also the signals along the wires are rather weak, it can cross any power-cable in any distance and any angle. Sure: the transmission-protocoll is doing also a (severe?) part of possible signal-recovery at a USB-connection.
Also the noise-behaviour was sure one of the reasons why ELK selected a RS485-bus-design for his system.
A RS485-bus is very rigid against noise. In the ELK-install-handbook they recomand a maximum of 1000 ft.
Ask Spanky: more would even possible if you using thicker wires (for less attenuation) even if you don't twist them and even in areas with rather high noise from power-lines. There are RS485-designs for much longer distances .. ok, then they may have reduced transmission speeds. But that is the next problem after noise.
Sacedog
Active Member
You might be correct for signal wiring, but not for MANY other applications. Speaker, intercom, network, hi-def video; ALL of those will be affected by noise from "noisy" HV electrical circuits (usually those with significant loads, or with motors connected to them). I have been doing premise wiring for networking for more than a decade, and have seen this problem first hand. Unless you are VERY careful with your wiring for a gigabit network, you will not get gigabit speeds (and that's not just me talking, it's a Fluke Cable Analyzer). The same will hold true for high-bandwidth, or audio applications.
You MAY be able to get around it by purchasing cabling with different types of shielding, but it is much cheaper just to follow basic LV wiring guidelines.
beelzerob
Senior Member
I want to be very careful with my Cat6 wiring....please share with me how to be VERY careful! :wacko:
Sacedog
Active Member
Follow most of the tips given in this thread already. Don't run your cabling parallel and next to AC lines; if you need to cross AC, do so at a 90 degree angle, and try to put a couple inches between them; dont run your wires near (within 8" - 12") of flourscent lights. Those will help ensure that you do not get noise from electrical sources.
Murphy is right, that the twisting in the cabling helps to mitigate noise. The higher the rating of Cat cabling (Cat 5, Cat 5e, Cat 6) the higher the twist rate. So you should be careful not to "modify" the twist rate by following some simple wiring guidelines. Don't put too much tension on your cable by pulling it too hard; make sure you have a decent bent radius when the wires turn a corner, or go into a hole in the ceiling; and try real hard not to crimp your cable when pulling it.
There is some GREAT information in the back of the current Belden catalog (paper version, not the online one). You can pick one up from a Greybar in your area.
beelzerob
Senior Member
Kerry, you said you have a similar one to that....how similar? I'm just asking in terms of quality....or maybe you could tell me the exact one you got. I've done some searching, and these things range from $10 to $80. I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a good place to splurge and get a metal-cased one just so I know it doesn't die on me and isn't cheaply made.
TeleFragger
Active Member
just wanted to throw this out..
I have used http://monoprice.com/home/index.asp
for some of my wiring...
2 x 12' fiber cable for my entertainment center for $12 shipped to my door!!!!
when I paid $65 for a 3' monster previously!!!!!
to me fiber is fiber.. but to others maybe not...
I have used http://monoprice.com/home/index.asp
for some of my wiring...
2 x 12' fiber cable for my entertainment center for $12 shipped to my door!!!!
when I paid $65 for a 3' monster previously!!!!!
to me fiber is fiber.. but to others maybe not...
beelzerob
Senior Member
Ya, I'm holding off on fiber or even HDMI. Main reason is that my entertainment center is on the first floor and easily accessible from below, so I don't have many fears about running that later, once I have a switcher, and a need to do so.
I am probably going to pick up a CL2 rated VGA cable from monoprice, though, to run to a touchscreen I know going in early, just above the wiring closet. Monoprice rocks.
