Rule Question on M1

[TheEther]

I'm probably going about this the wrong way.. help a brother out ..
 
I have a rule that closes my garage overhead door for me whenever the alarm is armed.  The problem is when I arm it in away mode and we walk out the interior door to the garage to leave, obviously if the door is already open it starts to close it.  I'd like to write a rule that uses a counter that basically says whenever the exit timer begins and the garage interior door becomes not secure (we've exited the house into the garage), and the garage overhead door is not secure, then wait 30 seconds (or some period of time) before closing the garage overhead door.
 
I run into this issue the most when we arm the alarm and leave the house but forget something, I pull into the driveway, open the garage overhead door, and send my son in after the item left.  He disarms the alarm (garage overhead door still open), finds the item then rearms the alarm in away mode, immediately the garage door begins to drop which I'd like to give him a few seconds to get out before it closes. 
 
Is this possible with the ELK rule system?
 
Thx!

 

[wuench]

I use this too close after the alarm becomes fully armed, after the exit timer expires... 
 
Whenever Exit Delay Any Area Ends
AND Area Armed
AND Garage Door Not Secure

 

[TheEther]

Good point, I'm doing it as soon as the exit timer begins.. That might just solve it..

 

[drvnbysound]

Hmm, I haven't put much thought into this... but is there an easy way to handle this if you wanted to garage door to be an entry/exit zone? The reason being, if I'm not home, and the garage door is opened (e.g. someone physically opened the door) I'd want the alarm to begin the entry delay. Otherwise, if it's used as an non-alarm zone, someone could open the door and they could haul off whatever I have stored in the garage (bikes, tools, whatever)... Having said that, similar to the case mentioned above, I wouldn't be able to arm the system if the door isn't already closed because it would be in an unsecured state.
 
Regarding the OP, another way could be to set a phantom output to turn on for 30 seconds, and upon it turning off, you could then have the garage door close.
 
I'm actually trying to do some fairly complex (I think) logic to do a "Goodnight" type function (at least I feel that it's a bit complex with Elk rules anyway), which 1) checks to see if the garage door is open, if so, close it 2) checks to see if the front door is locked, if so and the door is secure, lock it, 3) turn off all lights and 4) arm the system in stay mode. The way I've started going about doing this is to write individual functions that perform each task, and have a higher-level task which calls each of the 'sub-tasks' so they operate in a macro-type fashion. I'm doing it this way, simply because I also see myself using the sub-tasks individually to do things like closing the garage door if it's opened. The biggest issue I have right now is getting the lights off task to work properly - mainly because I've got non-instant status Z-wave dimmers which I need to poll first to determine which lights are on, then wait long enough to ensure that all the dimmers have responded with their status, then issue an all off command... and probably poll them again (since no Zwave dimmers report status via group command anyway). Another issue being getting the Areas configured and working properly with the Elk.

 

[elvisimprsntr]

Seems like having a rule to automatically close the door could be a liability problem.

 

[drvnbysound]

The Elk isn't tied to the motor independently - it's controlled via the same input as the GDO button is. Having said that, I don't know how pressing a button via Elk to close it is any different than pressing the GDO button - both close the door as long as there is nothing breaking the beam of the sensors.... 

 

[TheEther]

The Elk isn't tied to the motor independently - it's controlled via the same input as the GDO button is. Having said that, I don't know how pressing a button via Elk to close it is any different than pressing the GDO button - both close the door as long as there is nothing breaking the beam of the sensors.... 

 
Correct, the Elk is simply pressing the button on the wall of my garage.. no liability problem..

 

[George M]

. The biggest issue I have right now is getting the lights off task to work properly - mainly because I've got non-instant status Z-wave dimmers which I need to poll first to determine which lights are on, then wait long enough to ensure that all the dimmers have responded with their status, then issue an all off command... and probably poll them again (since no Zwave dimmers report status via group command anyway). Another issue being getting the Areas configured and working properly with the Elk.

I was fighting the same condition for turning off numerous zwave lights. I do this when arming to leave. None of the All Lights Off scenarios worked. So in my rule I send the command directly to the VRC0P via Text Over Port #. This works great. As an example. ">N2,3,6,8,10,12,14,23OF^M" will turn all those nodes (lights) off almost instantly. I haven't tried to tie ALL the lights to this, only those that are usually left on the most.  I tried the "areas" and they did not work as well as the direct command. Seems like some of them always stayed on.

 

[gatchel]

Correct, the Elk is simply pressing the button on the wall of my garage.. no liability problem..

 
 
So the Elk can visually determine whether or not there is a car, a small kid, etc. in the way?
 
A friendly reminder would be for you to read your operators manual that came with your GDO.
 
Here is an example from my Liftmaster 3800:
 
Check out page 23 - IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS
 
http://www.liftmaster.com/CatalogResourcesV3/en-us/shared/files/tucmanuals/114A3489.pdf
 
If you rely on the safety sensors or closing pressure sensor you might be asking for trouble.
 
(Edited to be more friendly and less Philadelphia attitude-like. B)

 

[drvnbysound]

So the Elk can visually determine whether or not there is a car, a small kid, etc. in the way?
 
Maybe you guys should re-read your manual that came with your GDO.
 
Here is an example:
 
Check out page 23 - IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS
 
http://www.liftmaster.com/CatalogResourcesV3/en-us/shared/files/tucmanuals/114A3489.pdf
 
If you rely on the safety sensors or closing pressure sensor you are asking for trouble.
 
Not trying to be a smart a** here but things do fail.

 
I 100% understand how the sensors work... It's pretty simple - if something is straddling the sensor it's not going to be detected. As with most every decision, there are some pros/cons and compromise that comes with it... Do you actually walk out to the door and ensure that nothing is in the way before pressing the button manually?
 
Today, from the door that enters my home, if I were to look toward my garage door I can see about 25% (maybe) of the floor in front of/under the door, because of other tools, bikes, and misc. stuff that I currently have stored in the garage. This is the location that I'd be pressing the button from manually.  I don't walk out there to check if anything is straddling the sensor anyway, so I have no problem doing this via Elk. I haven't parked in my 2-car garage in well over 2 years, so there won't be any car that is in the way... I've done little maintenance on my garage door, and it can probably be heard 3 houses down because of the screeching noise the door makes - if someone decides they want to stand under it while it closes... well I just don't know why anyone would want to do that because it makes the sound of death already ;-)

 

[tmbrown97]

I think helpful reminders are nice but criticizing peoples' decisions isn't what this is all about. Today, I have toddlers so I watch the door all the way down. If they're all 10+ (just for example) I'm not going to babysit the door any more... Should I tragically lose one to a door accident, I'll chalk it up to Darwinism.

As for handling of the doors, a good method with the Elk is to create the garage as its own zone and handle the Arming and Disarming via rules that way you can arm the main zone while its open, run rules, make your own custom delays, etc.

 

[elvisimprsntr]

I configured my Elk to use multiple areas. One for each floor and a separate one for the garage. The keypads are linked to area one. I do not put all the areas in a cross zone pool since in order to arm zone one all other areas must be armed first. I use a rule to sympathetically arm the other areas and delay the arming of the garage area by 5 minutes to allow me to get in the car and drive off. In STAY mode I only arm the first floor and garage which allows one to walk out on the balcony or open a window on cool night. In AWAY mode I arm all areas and zones. The downside is you don't know of you have a violated zone in the other areas before you arm them, so I perform a check in the rules to make sure there are no zones violated before sympathetically arming other areas. I have rule that will automatically arm to STAY mode if not already armed in the morning and night which eliminates the need to remember to arm the system on a daily basis, also because the keypads are on the first floor and the living spaces do not have keypads. I figure statistically speaking a burglar is not likely to carry around a 30 foot ladder or scale the outside of the house, if he did he would be greeted with a barrel end of a 44.


P.S I still have a hard time automatically closing ones garage upon arming. If you are using for example dial in control or a mobile app like eKeypad to arm your system, your rules will automatically close the door. I have a camera in my garage which I check before remotely closing my garage door.

 

[gatchel]

I think helpful reminders are nice but criticizing peoples' decisions isn't what this is all about. Today, I have toddlers so I watch the door all the way down. If they're all 10+ (just for example) I'm not going to babysit the door any more... Should I tragically lose one to a door accident, I'll chalk it up to Darwinism. As for handling of the doors, a good method with the Elk is to create the garage as its own zone and handle the Arming and Disarming via rules that way you can arm the main zone while its open, run rules, make your own custom delays, etc.

I apologize if that was seen as more than a helpful reminder. That wasn't it's intent. I could just see it though. A family event, showing off the control from somewhere where you can't see the door, and some relatives kid gets injured by the door. Odder things have happened. And lets be honest, how many people read manuals cover to cover?
 
If you can see the door with video, that's a good way to be sure...

 

[gatchel]

I 100% understand how the sensors work... It's pretty simple - if something is straddling the sensor it's not going to be detected. As with most every decision, there are some pros/cons and compromise that comes with it... Do you actually walk out to the door and ensure that nothing is in the way before pressing the button manually?
 
Today, from the door that enters my home, if I were to look toward my garage door I can see about 25% (maybe) of the floor in front of/under the door, because of other tools, bikes, and misc. stuff that I currently have stored in the garage. This is the location that I'd be pressing the button from manually.  I don't walk out there to check if anything is straddling the sensor anyway, so I have no problem doing this via Elk. I haven't parked in my 2-car garage in well over 2 years, so there won't be any car that is in the way... I've done little maintenance on my garage door, and it can probably be heard 3 houses down because of the screeching noise the door makes - if someone decides they want to stand under it while it closes... well I just don't know why anyone would want to do that because it makes the sound of death already ;-)

 
I do look. I don't want to have to buy a door, again... Seriously though. I wasn't trying to slam you or anyone else, for that matter. I just think that there are people that will read this thread and will make the right decision when operating the door, and then there are people that will take risks every time. Liability was brought up too. If you operate your garage door outside of how it was designed and someone or something gets damaged or injured, you most certainly are liable. Just trying to save some potential newbie who learns everything from a forum somewhere online from the potential hassle.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I like the approach weunch mentioned above. B)
 
As far as the 'helpfulness' of safety/code/whatever reminders, this is a DIY site above all else.  Friendly reminders are of course warranted and welcomed, but that's all the further they should go. :rockon:
 
Before I had my Elk I had a Caddx NX8e and an Ocelot (which I still just can't seem to part with).  The Ocelot is great with timers and I had a timer start whenever the system was armed in Exit mode.  When that timer expired I checked to still make sure the system was armed in exit mode, then chirped the siren in the garage and flashed the garage lights twice, then pulsed a relay that was connected to a GDO and closed the garage.
 
Since I also had HomeSeer looking at these devices I would then check to see if the garage door did indeed close after a few seconds; and, if not, send me an email.
 
When the system was armed in stay mode, I checked to see if the garage door was opened; then closed it if it was not.
 
My door also had the safety sensors at the bottom.  I can also monitor the actual 'position' of my garage door open (accurate to under two inches) with my DIY sensor (that I did a How-to on)!
 
I put an Elk system in my buddy's house, and they had two double car garage doors that they were always leaving open (unwanted) during the day and night times.  I installed a small LED dual color (red/green) in a switch plate that also controlled their voice announcements, and it would light red if any garage door was opened and green if the two were closed (logic and relay outputs all done via the Elk).  There are pics and a post about this on this forum as well.
 
One of these plates was mounted in the Master bedroom and another in their family room.  They LOVED it and wanted that in lieu of any type of automated control.