Starting 1st install of ELK M1

Ckerch

Member
I am starting to install of my first security system using the ELK  M1 and would like to get some thoughts and feedback on it.
Structures protected
  • ·         2 story house with basement
  • ·         40 X 80 ft barn (100ft away from house)
 
Current Equipment
  • ·         Elk Mi gold
  • ·         28” panel
  • ·         14” panel
  • ·         TRG 16410 Pwr Supply
  • ·         P 1216 Pwr Supply
  • ·         M1-EXP Ethernet interface
  • ·         (2) M1DBH Data bus hub
  • ·         (4) M1XIN 16 zone expander
  • ·         Leviton VRCOP Z Wave controller
  • ·         (6) Bosch i835 Motion sensor
  • ·         (26) Leviton Zwave switches/dimmers
 
Future Equipment (any recommendations?)
  • ·         (6) 4 wire smoke detector
  • ·         (6) 6 IP based cameras
 
 My plans are to use the M1 for security and Homeseer for automation. I have hardwired all the windows and door with contact sensors and use 6 motion sensors for first floor detection. I will use smoke detectors in the basement, first floor and all bedrooms on the 2nd floor but have not purchased yet.
 
 
Questions
1      The attached file is how I am hoping to wire up the data buss.
           a.       Can I run a 2nd data bus hub from the 1st data bus hub?
           b.      Because I am using network cable looping back the 485 line, would I terminate the line on the first hub (like shown) or the second hub
2.       Because the barn is 100 ft away from the house’s Z wave network, how would I create a 2nd Z Wave network in the barn? Would I use another M1-EXP and VRCOP tied to the barn hub?
 
 
Thank you in advance for your help
Carl
 

Attachments

  • ELK layout 29Jan17.JPG
    ELK layout 29Jan17.JPG
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You can daisy chain multiple M1DBHs, but not the way you've drawn it.  You need to connect to the second DBH with a crossover cable to J1 on the second DBH, not to the terminal block.  The DBH instructions show how to wire the crossover cable.  The termination jumper goes on the first DBH.
 
Also, you are not wiring the XINs correctly.  They need to be wired in a strict daisy chain. e.g. M1G --> XIN1 --> XIN2 --> XIN3 --> XSLZW.  You have a "Y" in your wiring which could cause problems.
 
Rather than wire the way you've shown, if you're going to use a DBH at the panel, just wire all the XINs and XSLZW to the DBH as well.
 
You could also skip the DBH in the barn and just wire the keypad and XIN  in a daisy chain and connect the other end back to the M1 directly.  This would be a second branch, which would get the second terminating jumper on the last device.   With just 2 devices in the barn, a M1DBH is hardly worth it.
 
For cable to the barn, you'll want to protect the cable at both ends at the point where it enters the buildings with a surge protector to protect against lightning damage.  A pair of Ditek DTK-4LVLPX would be one choice.  This requires a solid connection to earth ground at each end.  The best approach would be to locate these near the electrical service entrance so you can have as short a ground connection as possible.  The longer the ground connection, the less effective they will be.
 
Both panels (Barn and house) are right next to the electrical panels. Ground lines should be no longer than 5 ft.
 
I was keeping the data hub open because in the future I was thinking of adding another keypad in the house and output/input modules in the garage. However if this helps reduce data bus errors, I will have to rethink this. I updated the JPG and hopefully I am getting closer. Still not sure which DBH would get the terminating resistor.(House or Barn DBH). My thought would be terminating resistor would go on the barn DBH.
 
 
Thank you for pointing out the mistakes
Carl
 

Attachments

  • ELK layout 29Jan17 version 2.JPG
    ELK layout 29Jan17 version 2.JPG
    106.9 KB · Views: 29
That looks better.  The terminating resistor must always go at the end of the data bus.  The crossover cable to the second DBH places those devices in the chain created by the first DBH.  So the terminator plug would go in the first unused slot on the first DBH. 
 
If you plan to add more modules in the barn, then sure, use the DBH out there.  My point was that for just 2 modules, it is hardly worth the cost. The DBH isn't unreliable in and of itself.  The problem people often have with it is when they have poor RJ45 terminations on the cables that plug into it.
 
You could also wire the barn directly to the M1 and create a second data bus branch and free up another slot on the first DBH.  Then you would put a terminator plug on each DBH (and no jumper on JP3 on the M1).  In this case, you would use a regular cable rather than a crossover cable to the second DBH.  Nothing wrong with daisy chaining the DBHs.  This is just another way you could wire things.
 
One other thing you need to consider is power.  Assuming you will use the P1216 to power the M1XEP, you'll may be ok for now (depends which keypads you choose).  But if you add more modules/devices in the future, you'll need to add an auxiliary power supply.  Best to think about that now, and how you would power things as you grow to minimize rewiring.
 
An Elk P212S, P412, or Altronix AL400ULPD4 or PD8 would all be reasonable options.  Where it can get a little ugly is when you need to run some keypads and/or expansion modules on the M1's power, and others on the aux power supply.  If you have them all plugged into a DBH, that makes it more difficult to separate out the power.  It's a little easier if you choose to have a DBH for each power supply.
 
If you consider placing an aux power supply in the barn, then you need to worry about winter temperatures if you live in a cold climate.  Better to keep it in the house and run a separate, heavier gauge cable for power if the current load is more than a CATx cable is rated for.  In fact, I would run a separate power cable even with just the 2 devices.  You'll see a voltage drop of about 0.4V over a 100' length with CATx.  CATx will probably be ok when you're on AC power, but when you are running on batteries during a power failure, it will reduce your margins.
 
I have a similar situation to yours and I am wired almost exactly the same as your second diagram and it works well. The one major difference is that I connected the barn data bus cable directly to the M1 panel instead of connecting it to the DBH hub in the house. The panel allows for up to two cables to be attached to it.
 
My reasonong is that there is a physical limit to the wire length of any one data bus and this divides the length of the runs into two pieces.
 
Mike.
 
After thinking and looking at your feedback, I do think I will break out the barn data bus and run that directly to the M1. Think it will be a cleaner install, more stable and easier to troubleshoot. I will use cat 6 wire from the M1 to the DBH in the barn but do I only use 2 wires or do parallel the A and B lines?
 
I will also break out the barn power from the M1. I do live in Michigan the barn will be heated to at least 45 deg. When building the barn, I used a footing with rebar and my ground is tied to that. This should provide a good ground but if I have the power supply in the barn, do I run a risk of having grounds problems by not having common ground that ties back to the house ground where the M1 is grounded?
 
I will try to feed a powerline from the house to the barn in the conduit that holds the network and coax cable but will be difficult and will have to wait until warmer weather.
 
I downloaded the current draw worksheet from ELK and it is recommending an auxiliary power supply be used because my current draw is greater than 1 amp. That is without counting current draw from smoke detectors and using a P1612 to power the M1EXP Ethernet Interface. This was definitely a surprise and glad you brought up. Like you said, better to plan around it now.
 
In the last day, I have been trying to read as much as I can about using auxiliary power supplies. .
 
My plan would be to use M1 power to power house M1XIN Input Expander’s, M1XSLZW Leviton Z-Wave Interface, glass break detectors and if used a C1M14GSM Dual Path Communicator. The aux power supply would power, keypads, barn M1XIN Input Expander, motion detectors, output relay modules, smoke detector and if used M1TWA Amplified Two Way Listen-In Interface.
 
I have been looking at the Altronix power suppliers and they look like really nice packages. The two I were looking at are AL400ULPD4 or the AL600ULPD4CB.Not sure if the 6A AL600ULPD4CB is over kill or not.   The AL600ULPD4CB also has PTC protected power limited outputs instead of fuses. Have you heard of any issues with PTC breakers?
 
Thanks again Ral and Mike .It has been a lot of help
Carl
 
PTC's allow more voltage through before a trip compared to a fuse, which is absolute (unless slo-blow are used). There's pros and cons to each, but sensitive electronics are better off being fused, although spare fuses are a good thing to leave in the cabinet.
 
The rule of thumb with the M1 is to ensure the power for the remote bus devices exceeds the standby for the main panel; Bad things happen when the main panel is running and external bus devices start bouncing.
 
For sizing, the difference is going to be how much headroom you leave and future possibility. As far as distribution goes, I probably would go with more outputs vs. less,especially depending on how you break the branches out.
 
Ckerch said:
After thinking and looking at your feedback, I do think I will break out the barn data bus and run that directly to the M1. Think it will be a cleaner install, more stable and easier to troubleshoot. I will use cat 6 wire from the M1 to the DBH in the barn but do I only use 2 wires or do parallel the A and B lines?
Just parallel the A and B meaning that the data bus consists of three wires, data A, data B and common. As RAL sugested, I would use awg 18  wire pair for power. Or alternatively you can put a power supply in the barn and eliminate the need for the power cable between buildings.
 
Ckerch said:
I will also break out the barn power from the M1. I do live in Michigan the barn will be heated to at least 45 deg. When building the barn, I used a footing with rebar and my ground is tied to that. This should provide a good ground but if I have the power supply in the barn, do I run a risk of having grounds problems by not having common ground that ties back to the house ground where the M1 is grounded?
Elk recommends not grounding the M1 panel  at any point. The common must be connected between the panel and each DBH but a t no point should the common be connected to earth ground.
 
Ckerch said:
I will try to feed a powerline from the house to the barn in the conduit that holds the network and coax cable but will be difficult and will have to wait until warmer weather.
Again, maybe put a power supply in the barn.
 
Ckerch said:
I downloaded the current draw worksheet from ELK and it is recommending an auxiliary power supply be used because my current draw is greater than 1 amp. That is without counting current draw from smoke detectors and using a P1612 to power the M1EXP Ethernet Interface. This was definitely a surprise and glad you brought up. Like you said, better to plan around it now.
 
In the last day, I have been trying to read as much as I can about using auxiliary power supplies. .
 
My plan would be to use M1 power to power house M1XIN Input Expander’s, M1XSLZW Leviton Z-Wave Interface, glass break detectors and if used a C1M14GSM Dual Path Communicator. The aux power supply would power, keypads, barn M1XIN Input Expander, motion detectors, output relay modules, smoke detector and if used M1TWA Amplified Two Way Listen-In Interface.
 
I have been looking at the Altronix power suppliers and they look like really nice packages. The two I were looking at are AL400ULPD4 or the AL600ULPD4CB.Not sure if the 6A AL600ULPD4CB is over kill or not.   The AL600ULPD4CB also has PTC protected power limited outputs instead of fuses. Have you heard of any issues with PTC breakers?
I installed the 4 amp Altronix with fuses and it is fine but I would definitely say that 6 amps is not overkill. You might even consider the 8 amp if it wil be used for both house and barn.  Sirens and strobes, motions etc, etc, etc.
 
Ckerch said:
Thanks again Ral and Mike .It has been a lot of help
Carl
 
Ckerch said:
After thinking and looking at your feedback, I do think I will break out the barn data bus and run that directly to the M1. Think it will be a cleaner install, more stable and easier to troubleshoot. I will use cat 6 wire from the M1 to the DBH in the barn but do I only use 2 wires or do parallel the A and B lines?
 
It's important that you use a true pair (e.g. green/white and white/green) for the A and B wire pair.  Each color pair is twisted together and the twist helps cancel any electrical noise that may be picked up in the cable.  If you want to use two conductors for each signal, then place another pair in parallel, such as orange/white and white/orange.  Don't connect both wires of the green pair to A and both wires of the orange pair to B.
Overall, doubling up on the conductors isn't necessary. Everything should be fine using a single pair.
 
 
Ckerch said:
I will also break out the barn power from the M1. I do live in Michigan the barn will be heated to at least 45 deg. When building the barn, I used a footing with rebar and my ground is tied to that. This should provide a good ground but if I have the power supply in the barn, do I run a risk of having grounds problems by not having common ground that ties back to the house ground where the M1 is grounded?
 
The power supply should be ok in the barn if the temperature doesn't go below freezing.  Wherever you place the power supply, you will need to connect the negative/common termianl from the power supply back to the negative/common on the M1.  But as Mike pointed out, you do not want to connect this to earth ground. 
 
If you do place the power supply in the barn, you'll want to run a couple of additional cable pairs back to the M1 for power supply supervision. The Altronix supply has contact outputs for AC Fail and Low Battery.  They can be connected up to zone inputs on the M1 so you know when there is a problem with the power supply.
 
One other thing to think about if the power supply is in the barn.  The lower the temperature, the lower the capacity of the battery will be.  As DEL pointed out, you want the battery in the aux power supply to last longer than the battery in the M1 during a power failure.   You need to take temperature into consideration as well as the load on the power supply.  The chart on page 9 of this Power Sonic manual can help you with that.  A rough estimate is that you'll lose 20% at 45 degrees.
 
 
Ckerch said:
My plan would be to use M1 power to power house M1XIN Input Expander’s, M1XSLZW Leviton Z-Wave Interface, glass break detectors and if used a C1M14GSM Dual Path Communicator. The aux power supply would power, keypads, barn M1XIN Input Expander, motion detectors, output relay modules, smoke detector and if used M1TWA Amplified Two Way Listen-In Interface.
 
I have been looking at the Altronix power suppliers and they look like really nice packages. The two I were looking at are AL400ULPD4 or the AL600ULPD4CB.Not sure if the 6A AL600ULPD4CB is over kill or not.   The AL600ULPD4CB also has PTC protected power limited outputs instead of fuses. Have you heard of any issues with PTC breakers?
 
The Altronix power supplies are available with a choice of PTCs or fuses.  Often you can find a good deal on an Altronix on eBay.  If it has PTCs and you want fuses, it's easy enough to buy the power distribution board separately and swap it out.  Just depends on whether it is worth doing from a total cost point of view.
 
I think the AL400 would have sufficient power for what you have described.  It really depends on how much you might grow the system.
 
Deciding what devices to place on which power supply is a complex decision.  When determining whether you have sufficient capacity, you need to use the max current draw numbers. But I feel you also need to consider the normal-mode power requirements as well. For example, a motion detector draws less power when in standby mode vs alarm mode.  This will affect how long the batteries can power things, assuming the system is in non-alarm mode most of the time.
 
Powering the smoke detectors from the M1 gives you the advantage of being able to use the resettable SAUX power directly.  If you power them from the aux supply, you will need a relay to allow you to reset the smoke power.
 
Proper wiring of smoke detectors is a whole 'nother topic.   There are many threads here on Cocoontech where it has been discussed.  Read up on it before you do any wiring or make a choice of 2-wire vs 4-wire smokes.
 
When I installed my aux power supply I decided that 4 amps was plenty of power but I didn't consider that some add-ons use a lot of power.
 
I have a 4 way distribution board. The first 1 amp line is connected to the DBH in the garage. Then I I have an M1XTWA which uses up to one full amp itself. I am also considering a door strike on the garage which is another 1 amp device. Those two devices use half of my auxiliary power supply. The XEP can also be attached to the aux supply and it uses about 300ma.
 
Four amps will most likely be plenty for your installation but six is not out of the question if you see a bargain on ebay. I paid $40 for my 4 amp ALtronix new in the box.
 
Mike.
 
Well searching around and did buy an Altronix AL600ULPD4 on Ebay for $100. Of course this does not include batteries. As suggested in the previous replies I will need to make sure the Aux batteries last longer than the M1 batteries so need to do some reading on that. Think that is pretty straight forward. Hopefully the batteries won’t get to that drain point because last fall I bought a 25kw whole house generator and expecting to connect that up this summer. Need to do a lot of reading on smoke detectors and get them on order. I may be limited to a 4 wire because I have a 2 wire fire detect that is using zone 16. Once I get all my components defined (at least for now) I can try to divide them up on which power supply they are wired to.
 
Your replies have been so helpful and have pointed out things I did not even think about.
 
Thank You
Carl
 
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