UPB on End of Run switch

[tmbrown97]

Hey Guys,

A while back when researching UPB vs. Insteon vs. Z-Wave, one of the posts I read here that I haven't been able to find since said that you can use UPB even if you don't have a common wire, as is the case with an end-of-run switch.

Go figure - I settled on UPB and ordered a couple of the configurable Simply Automated switches - for the two areas I want the control most for... a retrofit ceiling fan in the master whos switch is all the way across the room in the bathroom entry - the switch at the entryway only goes to the outlet behind the bed, which we don't use; and another ceiling fan in the livingroom - also a hardwire with no switch (currently hooked to an RF wireless control only).

My hope was to get the configurable switches from SA and basically change the switch on entry into the master to a 3-rocker - the big rocker for the ceiling fan light, and the small ones for the outlet and the fan. For the Livingroom, same basic thing - there's a single switch that controls the table lamp, and I was going to make the box bigger and throw another dual-rocker in there to control the two fan functions and use some sort of wired in-line receiver for that fan.

Well - in both of the locations where I really want the control, it turns out they're wired as end-of-run switches with no common. What's the best thing to do here?

About the best though I had was to re-wire the run that goes from the last outlet to the switch (maybe make it a UPB outlet so I don't lose switching ability), and change it from being a hot feed/return to basically just being full load to the switch (hot/common) - running that to SA switch, and just have nothing on the load side (what scares me is if someone after I sell the house were to replace a switch without understanding what was done - flipping the switch would instantly short the circuit). Is that doable? Is there a better switch to use in this situation? And if I were to do that, I wouldn't need local load control - so is there a cheaper option for the switches, like a 3-way slave switch, or something like that?

Looking forward to any ideas - thx in advance!

 

[Steve]

Todd, Your post was a bit hard to follow so I drew it out and will reply the best I understand it. But first, I assume when you say common you are referring to neutral. And yes, UPB does absolutely require a neutral and I don't know of any post in the last few years that said otherwise (and if I saw it I would have corrected it). Anyway, that's just a fact, so if you don't have a neutral where you want to put a switch, you need to get one there. If getting a neutral into the box is just not an option then I'm afraid your only option is to look at Zwave.

So, assuming you can get a neutral, the first problem I see for you is that a single switch only controls 1 load. There are supposedly dual load switches in the works, but not available yet. So, your single switch in the Master cannot control everything on it's own. You can set the large rocker to control the light easy enough, but for the fan and outlet you will need additional components. If you need control of the outlet from the switch, the easiest thing to do is change the outlet out with a UPB outlet and use one of the small rockers to send a link to it for on/off. For the fan, there is currently no fan control (also in the works) but you can put an inline module on it and configure third rocker to send links for at least on/off. Some people have had luck with using a dimmer to control fan and even if that were to work for you, you would need to put the fan on the main large (local load) rocker and would then need an inline dimmer for the light.

You will have similar issues in other room and would need to follow similar logic to above. Make sense?

Edit: Are you SURE there is no neutral in the switch boxes? Many times they are there just tied together and stuffed into the back of the box.

 

[tmbrown97]

I apologize for not being clear enough... let me do my best... I'll try to follow the correct terms... And I definitely remember reading on this forum in a thread debating upb, insteon and z-wave where someone said an advantage was not needing a common - and I've searched for 2 days trying to find it... perhaps it got edited and corrected. Unfortunately, that was the final selling point that caused me to make an initial investment in UPB.

Both scenarios are pretty similar, so I'll just work one...

For the bedroom, there is already a switch for the fan, but it's in the wrong part of the room. I was going to change the single 3-wire fan control to two switches (1 fan, 1 light)... Light needs to dim - not worried about speed control on the fan - we never change that. Then the place where I was going to put the multi-button rockers, I was going to use the large one to send a link to the fan's light, then one of the smaller ones control the local load (table lamp), and the last rocker to send another link to the fan - basically mimicking a 3-way function. Only difference in the livingroom is that there's no local switch anywhere for the fan or light, so I was assuming there'd be an in-line module I could wire in the box.

I am positive there's no neutral. I've found at least 3 places so far where the switch was wired as end-of-run (kind of annoying for this type of work). took some work to find an example online - but this kinda shows my scenario: http://www.indepthinfo.com/wire-switch/ima...ight-switch.jpg - except it's an outlet, not a light.

The only way to get a neutral to the switch location would be to wire the switch as full-on, and hook the hot and neutral up as normal going to the switch location - then there'd be no load left (no way to control the load). If I do that, is there a cheaper/easier version of a switch I can use that doesn't have the ability to control a local load? And is that even a normal, safe practice? And if I did that, I'd probably still be tempted to change the outlet itself to a upb outlet, so I can still have some form of control.

I hope that's easier to follow... Thx!

 

[PaulD]

Not sure I get the full picture on what you are trying to do but you can use the end of line switch location with just 2 wires by installing a SA USR switch at the location where you only have 2 wires and using it as a remote for a fixture module or another switch somewhere else to control the actual load. In this setup, the USR can only switch a single device. Anything else requires a third wire.

 

[smcdonal]

Hi Todd,

I'm not sure if I'm following you 100% either but I think you are on the right track about wiring it as "full-on" to the switch location. From what I understand about UPB there are two ways to get around the lack of a neutral/common wire.

1) use an in-line module SA UFD or UFR (ie one that would be put into the base of the fan for example), and use a SA USR remote switch to control it. You would still be able to control the fan by sending commands from remote. I think this doesn't meet your needs because you wanted to control more than one device at the existing wall switch location.

2) again, use an in-line module at the light fixture but modify the wiring to also pass hot and neutral to the wall switch location "full-on" as you mention. Then wire a SA US2-40 with your desired faceplate and only send link commands to the locations you need, including the in-line fixture location. This configuration assumes you can rewire things to pass neutral to the wall switch location and costs a bit more (UFR/UFD + US2-40).

Regarding your specific situation, I'm still a bit confused. Focusing on your master bedroom configuration from what I understand you have:

Current:
single gang wall switch at the master bedroom entrance that has no neutral wire controlling a wall plug near the bed
single gang wall switch at the bathroom entry controlling the ceiling fan and ceiling fan light using "3-wire" fan control.

I'm assuming there are no other neutrals in the above mentioned wall switch boxes correct? I worked around this problem in the past because I had a multi-gang wall switch location and the other circuits going through the wall switch location had neutral wires I could use.

Desired configuration:
Both wall switch locations, master bedroom entrance and bathroom entrance have 3 rocker switch faceplates (ZS23) to control the ceiling fan, ceiling fan light and wall plug

Is this correct?

Also, what do you mean by 3 wire fan control? Does this mean there are 3 wires (black, white, red and ground) running from the fan to the wall switch location?

If you could answer/confirm the above I might have some thoughts as to how we might be able to work this out.


Stephen

 

[tmbrown97]

I feel like I'm really screwing up my explanations here... but yeah - you are pretty much correct. I honestly don't care if I use the SAI 3-rocker switch or put in 3 switches that control no local loads, but act as transmitters only... I think that's where I'm at - that I need to rewire the romex going from the end-of-run switch to instead pass neutral and hot without having switching ability. That'll get me hot and neutral at the switch - then use a transmitter-only switch to activate the other ones.

For the current master fan, it's using a 3-wire - meaning red, white, black, ground - pretty common - sends separate power to fan and light - and has an older single-gang old-work box. I'm sure I could easily convert that to a double-gang old-work box using 2 separate switches - maybe a dimmer and load controller, so the one in the entry to the bedroom has something to link to.

Thoughts?

Edit: I know I'm calling it 3-wire and listing 4.... I never count the ground... Most romex is white/black w/ground - what I call 3-wire is the white/black/red/ground so you can pass 2 loads and share the common at the fixture.

 

[smcdonal]

Hi Todd,

Nah, I wouldn't say you are screwing up your explanations. I just want to be sure I understand you. So any building code issues aside my thoughts would be you could consider the following:

- wire a UPB receptacle at the wall plug, and rewire the run going to the wall switch to pass hot and neutral from the receptacle.
- at the master bedroom entrance, replace the wall switch with a US2-40 and use only link commands to control the 3 devices
- wire a SA UFR-30 or similar to the base of the ceiling fan if it can fit... or in the ceiling... or wait for the ceiling fan control unit that is supposed to come out later this year currently being discussed in another thread. Its not clear what types of ceiling fan configurations it will control though... Anyhow, I'm assuming the UFR is small enough to squish into the base of the fan. I've never used one or done this so I'm kinda guessing here. Maybe someone with more experience who has done this can provide some feedback.
- connect the hot and neutral to the respective black and white wires to the ceiling fan wall switch and use the red wire as the load wire for the light. Disconnect the red wire from everything else at the ceiling fan and connect the light to the neutral and the red wire. The use a US2-40 at the ceiling fan wall switch location to control the load for the light and program the two other toggles to send link commands

You could consider switching the UFR for a UFD and use the higher rated US2-40 dimmer to attempt to control the fan speed as Steve suggested above. You could then use the UFD for the light instead.

Does this sound possible for your situation?

Stephen

- Looking back through this I think I just suggested the same thing that Steve did earlier...

 

[tmbrown97]

Yeah - that sounds pretty much exactly right... And I'm glad you guys threw out some model numbers to look at, cuz that would've been my last question. I think that's what I'm gonna try.

Worst case, if the UFR-30 doesn't fit in the base of the fan, the other side of the wall where the switch is is inside the closet - so if I had to, I could put a junction box in there a little higher than the one with the switch and run the wire through there... I think I'm gonna try that - it may take a couple weeks to get the parts and motivation, but I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Thx for the help!

 

[Steve]

Ain't no way you're getting a UFR in the 'base' of the fan. If you have any chance at all, it will be in the canopy, but the PCS module might actually fit better in there. Or you can put it anywhere in the line like you suggested. If you just extend the wires you have now to the switch location it will be a 'link only' switch where you will need modules for anything else to control, including the light. Will work fine, just a little more work and expense.