I been changing switches through my house, this is the first single gang box that I have to change. After taking the switch apart that controls the formal living room light, I come to find out that there is no neutral wire. What should I do? It is a single gang box and it only has two wires and the ground. I know I need a neutral for upb based on the posts here, what can I do? Do i need to run a neutral all the way from he breaker box? What is the best way to handle this?
UPB Wiring, No neutral in the box.
- Thread starter MrSpeed
- Start date
Odds are the neutral is located at the light and just a two wire switch leg is run down to the switch. You'll have to run a new wire, but you can run it to the light if that is easier. You can run a three wire to the switch and run the two wire switch leg on two wires and the neutral to tie into the UPB switch on the third wire.
I do't think you want to pull a neutral from another circuit. So where ever you pull the neutral from, make sure it is on the same circuit breaker as the light. If this means going all the way back to the breaker box, that should be OK. Hopefully you can pull it from somewhere closer.
I do't think you want to pull a neutral from another circuit. So where ever you pull the neutral from, make sure it is on the same circuit breaker as the light. If this means going all the way back to the breaker box, that should be OK. Hopefully you can pull it from somewhere closer.
drozwood90
Senior Member
Depends:
First Floor?
Second Floor?
Where do the power runs go?
In my parent's house, the wires run through the studs, in my house, they run along the studs and into the attic or basement to traverse around.
You need to find the closest "same circuit" plug...which might actually be the light. Then you'll probably need to add a junction box and tap into the neutral there and fish it down.
I can only tell you what I was going to do...as for me...my last house was like what you have, so I had a plan. By the time I was done with all the 3 and 4 way switches (where I used the runner line as the neutral) and had to start on the switches like you mentioned, I had to move. So, we moved into a new build, and I had neutrals added everywhere...
It cost a bit more, but was a lot easier.
Added to agree with sic:
Thinking about it, it might be easier to attach a fish wire to the existing wire and pull a new wire with the proper amount of pairs...I know when I needed to get the neutral, I tended to get it from the light itself (electrically safer and to code...).
--Dan
First Floor?
Second Floor?
Where do the power runs go?
In my parent's house, the wires run through the studs, in my house, they run along the studs and into the attic or basement to traverse around.
You need to find the closest "same circuit" plug...which might actually be the light. Then you'll probably need to add a junction box and tap into the neutral there and fish it down.
I can only tell you what I was going to do...as for me...my last house was like what you have, so I had a plan. By the time I was done with all the 3 and 4 way switches (where I used the runner line as the neutral) and had to start on the switches like you mentioned, I had to move. So, we moved into a new build, and I had neutrals added everywhere...
It cost a bit more, but was a lot easier.
Added to agree with sic:
Thinking about it, it might be easier to attach a fish wire to the existing wire and pull a new wire with the proper amount of pairs...I know when I needed to get the neutral, I tended to get it from the light itself (electrically safer and to code...).
--Dan
How does everyone feel about using the ground in this situation? I know, I know. But it's such a small amount of current. To me, it's no worse than the conventional illuminated switches that "leak" current into the load when the switch is off.
Depending on how big the box is where the fixture is mounted, and how much room there is, an alternative might be: Install the switch, sans faceplate, in the fixture box, and connect the fixture to it. Rewire the switch loop with its black connected to hot, and its white connected to the switch's auxiliary input (put some red tape or something on the white to indicate that it isn't a neutral). Then mount an auxiliary switch in the switch box. The auxiliary switch doesn't need a neutral. The only disadvantage to this is that there is no LED indicating the load state.
If you don't like the idea of mounting the switch in the fixture box where it will be covered up, a third alternative is to install a load module like a PCS FMD-2-4 in the fixture box. This is basically the guts of a UPB switch, without the human interface part. Re-wire the switch loop with its black connected to hot and its white connected to neutral. Then install a switch there, with no connection to its load terminals. Its purpose is to generate UPB commands. You will then have to do one of two things: (1) establish a UPB link to communicate between the switch and the load module, or (2) use your automation system and write a rule that sends commands to the load module when it sees commands coming from the switch.
Depending on how big the box is where the fixture is mounted, and how much room there is, an alternative might be: Install the switch, sans faceplate, in the fixture box, and connect the fixture to it. Rewire the switch loop with its black connected to hot, and its white connected to the switch's auxiliary input (put some red tape or something on the white to indicate that it isn't a neutral). Then mount an auxiliary switch in the switch box. The auxiliary switch doesn't need a neutral. The only disadvantage to this is that there is no LED indicating the load state.
If you don't like the idea of mounting the switch in the fixture box where it will be covered up, a third alternative is to install a load module like a PCS FMD-2-4 in the fixture box. This is basically the guts of a UPB switch, without the human interface part. Re-wire the switch loop with its black connected to hot and its white connected to neutral. Then install a switch there, with no connection to its load terminals. Its purpose is to generate UPB commands. You will then have to do one of two things: (1) establish a UPB link to communicate between the switch and the load module, or (2) use your automation system and write a rule that sends commands to the load module when it sees commands coming from the switch.
I would STRONGLY advise against using the ground in place of the neutral. "But it's such a small amount of current": what does that mean? The neutral wire carries the same amount of current as the 'hot' wire. If you have a 110 watt bulb, you're talking about 1 amp. If you use the ground wire as a neutral, it will be carrying 1 amp when the light is on.
tenholde
While I do not condone the use of the ground as a neutral I dont necessarily agree with your statement above that the neutral will carry the same amount of current as the hot in this case. The neutral may only be there for the device itself and not the load and may only be 100 ma etc.
Again I do not condone the use of the ground as the neutral.
Sorry, that wasn't clear... I was thinking of only using the switch as a signaling device in that case. You'd still need something somewhere else to do the actual dimming.
If you are not using the module to switch the load, then you must have enough wires traveling to the module location, don't you? How many wires currently go to the box you will be mounting the switch into? All you need are 2: Hot and Neutral. You do not need a 'switch' leg.
tenholde
I'm not the OP... true that, if you aren't switching the load, you only need two wires plus ground at the switch box. Before I made a mess of the thread, I was trying to suggest that. Of course, then you still need something somewhere else to do the actual dimming, which was the other bit I was trying to get at.
I dont remember the code on sharing the neutral but that may be possible/allowable (I think it is but needs to be verfied). I do know that if you use GFCI's on the circuit you will probably have a problem if you downstream protect since the line will not be balanced.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I ended up with a few areas in the house with "end of run" switches (too many). The fix seems to be basically rewiring the wires at the fixture so that white is neutral, black is hot, ground is ground - so you get neutral down to the switch location; but there'll be no wires left for the load end so as described above, this is now a transmit-only switch. Then at the fixture you'll have just hot, permanently on... so you'd use a wire-in fixture module inside the fixture can that'll do the actual control of the load, and receive the signals from the transmit-only switch.
In one of mine, a ceiling fan, It's not possible to get more wires without re-rocking an entire wall (thx to passthroughs it's a solid 20ft header I can't drill through)... we're going to run the switches into a nearby closet so I can access the UPB switches without ever going back into the attic, then using transmit-only switches where they "make sense".
Not sure how clear that is - different way of saying what's kinda already been said.
In one of mine, a ceiling fan, It's not possible to get more wires without re-rocking an entire wall (thx to passthroughs it's a solid 20ft header I can't drill through)... we're going to run the switches into a nearby closet so I can access the UPB switches without ever going back into the attic, then using transmit-only switches where they "make sense".
Not sure how clear that is - different way of saying what's kinda already been said.
The correct answer is "it depends".
The proper term is a Multiwire Branch Circuit and requires that the hot be on opposite legs of the panel. Otherwise, the hots were on the same phase, a 12/14 gauge wire could be subjected to twice the rated current if both hots were at or near their limit.
Usually a double pole breaker is required.
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