What Protocol should i choose?

dgreene

New Member
I have used HAI for about 10 years.  Last year my panel went out and I replaced it with the Leviton HAI Omni II Pro panel (firmware 3.13 which supports zwave,RA2,Zigby,etc).  
 
My configuration is currently:
Panel
13 alarm zones (hard wired)
2 – Omni keypads (hardwired)
2 – HAI Thermostats (hardwired)
1 – Serial module for x10 (connected to 1 of the 5 serial ports)
Connected to ethernet and managed via iPhone app (Haiku or snap link)
 
Lighting:
x10 (insteon) wall switches (dimming and standard)
x10 wall outlets
x10 (both x10 and insteon)compatible lamp modules (dimming and standard)
x10/upb power line coupler & repeater
 
 
I have used x10 capable devices since the installation of the panel.  Now some of my insteon X10 devices are failing, and I would prefer to replace them as they fail with something newer (Zwave, UPB, etc).  I understand my panel can support (through other serial ports/power line modules) other protocols.  
 
I’m looking for suggestions on the best long term solution for replacing light switches, lamp modules, etc as they fail. I wish to continue using the x10 devices, along side any new replacement devices and have them controlled by the Omni. I do not want to forklift upgrade my entire lighting system if it all possible.  I also don’t want to settle on another standard that will fall out of favor/not be supported in a few years.
 
Please suggest the best protocol, and best solution for doing this – and any specific part numbers you recommend for the power line module, phase coupler (if needed), repeaters, etc.
 
Thank you!
 
 
Welcome to the cocoontech forum dgreene.
 
Here originally started (before the OmniPro 2) with X10 in the late 1970's.  I then went to X10/Insteon and used the OP2 panel to manage my switches.  Concurrently started to play with UPB. 
 
I can only write about what I have and use.  There is no best anything today; just a lot of choices of use and protocals.
 
Today primary wall switches are UPB, removed the Insteon stuff a few years back, use X10 for my Christmas Lighting and have a Z-Wave network running.
 
Fixed X10 using Jeff Volp's TW-523 dual phased X10 emulator on steroids.  I have no issues with X10 today connected to the OmniPro2 panel.
 
UPB reivented the power line protocal stuff.  Insteon is a hybrid wireless / powerline protocal and Zigbee and Z-Wave are wireless.  Lutron is both wired and wireless.  Their new stuff is wireless.  There are more automation protocals out there. 
 
I prefer wired to wireless automation here and today still utilize power line.  That is me.
 
Relating to UPB; there are a couple of methodologies of use.  One is the Leviton HAI HLC piece of UPB and the other is the HAI UPB piece of UPB.
 
Read on here and you will notice a passion of sorts for just about every automation protocal by folks using it, same for what folks utilize today with the Omni Panels.
 
Here automation is a hobby so I use it and play with it. 
 
Lately playing with a Windows Homeseer Kinect and Alexa plugin.  The two run on a new Baytrail mini PC connected to a Microsoft Kinect.  They can talk with each other or just do the doo of automation.  These two specific plugins run autonomously from the mothership that is running in Ubuntu 14.04 64 bit which talks to the OmniPro 2 panel; well too it runs a VB of Windows server just for Microsoft SAPI voices going to the zoned Russound audio system (which is connected to both the OPII panel and the Homeseer automation server using a micro serial server / serial splitter the size of my big thumb).  I have an Amazon Echo here and moved it (WAF thing) behind furniture and use the Alexa software Kinect thing now. 
 
UPB. The Omni Pro II supports it well, its very much like a much improved "X-10" and there are several manufacturers making products. 
 
pete_c said:
Welcome to the cocoontech forum dgreene.
 
Here originally started (before the OmniPro 2) with X10 in the late 1970's.  I then went to X10/Insteon and used the OP2 panel to manage my switches.  Concurrently started to play with UPB. 
 
I can only write about what I have and use.  There is no best anything today; just a lot of choices of use and protocals.
 
Today primary wall switches are UPB, removed the Insteon stuff a few years back, use X10 for my Christmas Lighting and have a Z-Wave network running.
 
Fixed X10 using Jeff Volp's TW-523 dual phased X10 emulator on steroids.  I have no issues with X10 today connected to the OmniPro2 panel.
 
UPB reivented the power line protocal stuff.  Insteon is a hybrid wireless / powerline protocal and Zigbee and Z-Wave are wireless.  Lutron is both wired and wireless.  Their new stuff is wireless.  There are more automation protocals out there. 
 
I prefer wired to wireless automation here and today still utilize power line.  That is me.
 
Relating to UPB; there are a couple of methodologies of use.  One is the Leviton HAI HLC piece of UPB and the other is the HAI UPB piece of UPB.
 
Read on here and you will notice a passion of sorts for just about every automation protocal by folks using it, same for what folks utilize today with the Omni Panels.
 
Here automation is a hobby so I use it and play with it. 
 
Lately playing with a Windows Homeseer Kinect and Alexa plugin.  The two run on a new Baytrail mini PC connected to a Microsoft Kinect.  They can talk with each other or just do the doo of automation.  These two specific plugins run autonomously from the mothership that is running in Ubuntu 14.04 64 bit which talks to the OmniPro 2 panel; well too it runs a VB of Windows server just for Microsoft SAPI voices going to the zoned Russound audio system (which is connected to both the OPII panel and the Homeseer automation server using a micro serial server / serial splitter the size of my big thumb).  I have an Amazon Echo here and moved it (WAF thing) behind furniture and use the Alexa software Kinect thing now. 
Pete,  
 
Thank you for your response - and here i thought i was the gadget geek!  
 
My insteon & x10 stuff worked well about 10 years, but some of the switches and lamp modules have started to fail and I'm depleting my spares.  Now of course they've discontinued the x10 functions from most of the insteon product line.  Since my system pretty much ran without incident until the last 2 years and i've not researched this in quite a while,  I have a few follow up questions if you would be so kind:
 
1. Based on some research it appears there are 3 versions of the UPB protocol.  Which one is best or does it even matter?
 
2. I assume since you're using x10, UPB and Zwave all on the same OMNI panel, you are using 3 different PIM's (power line interface modules), connected to 3 different serial ports within the panel, to communicate with the devices?  
 
3. Is there a reason you're using 3 protocols other than to support legacy items? (i.e. you get some specific functions from one that you don't another)
 
4. Since you are using x10 and UPB did it require you to install 2 Powerline coupler/repeaters (one for x10 and one for UPB)?  The one I currently have i bought from smart home and it plugs in the dryer outlet (which is discontinued now) - but its gone bad and I need to replace it.  I've ordered an x10 direct wire unit - but before I install I want to make sure I don't need one for UPB as well.
 
5. Any pitfalls I should be aware of going down this path?  Such as vendors to avoid - (proprietary or doesn't play well with other devices), mistakes to avoid, etc.
 
Thank you for your advice.
 
More Insteon with X10 support would be a natural. Very few Insteon devices (if any) have dropped X10 support.
 
I believe the Insteon Hub is dropping support for X1 but who uses that for it's poor HA features?
 
Zwave seems to be taking over for locks, thermostats, and some other device types, and it sounds like your panel would do well to continue your mix of devices. Baring that, ISY994i would be a almost drop-in  replacement, supporting the same types as you currently have. The difference is you could upgrade to some Insteon protocol, where available on your Insteon devices and have full status feedback, reliability, and higher speed, and yet still talk to X10 devices.
 
I came from X10 into Insteon with most of my X10 devices replaced now. Unfortunately X10 is destined for the bin with so many more featured protocols out there now. The easy slide-in is Insteon and you already have many devices for it. The phase bridges are mostly compatible, but mostly not required with newer Insteon dual-band devices.
 
My insteon & x10 stuff worked well about 10 years, but some of the switches and lamp modules have started to fail and I'm depleting my spares.  Now of course they've discontinued the x10 functions from most of the insteon product line.  Since my system pretty much ran without incident until the last 2 years and i've not researched this in quite a while,  I have a few follow up questions if you would be so kind:
 
Here migration initially went from X-10 to Insteon and I controlled the switches via OPII X10 and Homeseer Insteon (salad days). While here in the 2000's started to add UPB switches controlled by the OmniPro 2. 
 
Did intially did do the 2nd floor and other parts of the home with UPB as the Insteon switches slowly started to not work anymore (physical switch part).  Never paid much attention because many were automated on schedules.
 
One day had an electrical debaucle here due to my outdoor HVAC getting struck by lightning?  It did take out the rest of the Insteon switches and I replaced them all with UPB where as today I have no Insteon wall switches.
 
Relating to Insteon I never looked back.  I told off the Insteon folks more than once at more than one EHExpo relating to the garbage Insteon implementation first try and my waste of money spend relating to the bother of migrating to Insteon. 
 
That is me and basically told them off and called the folks idiots; loud enough that you could hear me isles over. 
 
Maybe it was an old age thing?  It made me feel good to watch the Insteon folks cringe when I yelled at them.
 
1. Based on some research it appears there are 3 versions of the UPB protocol.  Which one is best or does it even matter?
 
Yes; there is a Gen 1, 2 & 3 UPB protocol.  SA is Gen 1 and PCS & HAI and Webmountain are Gen 2 & 3 (from what I am reading).
 
HAI is also HLC (from what I am reading).
 
Here cuz I started a long time ago implemented PCS, HAI and SA UPB switches.  During that timeline my UPB signal levels dropped on a timely and regular basis.  I had no noise just a drop in signals.  I attributed it to the installation of an inground pool pump next door.
 
Initially here then with the signal drop installed a PCS UPB phase coupler, then a SA UPB phase coupler with my collection of UPB switches.
 
I didn't see much of a rise in the signal strength of my UPB switches. IE: still had that timely signal drop.
 
I installed an HAI UPB repeater and my issues went away.  (signal levels went back up and my OPII panel now controls all of my UPB (PCS & HAI & SA) switches just fine in UPB mode).
 
2. I assume since you're using x10, UPB and Zwave all on the same OMNI panel, you are using 3 different PIM's (power line interface modules), connected to 3 different serial ports within the panel, to communicate with the devices?
 
Yes.
 
1 - X10 Pim is an XTB / Jeff Volp dual phase TW-523 - works great and is an update from the original XTB/HAI-TW523 PIM.
I tried UPB, Insteon and Z-Wave for my Christmas lighting and it was a PITA of a waste of time so I downgraded back to X-10 for my Christmas lighting.
2 - UPB - regular HAI UPB PIM plus HAI UPB repeater
3 - Z-Wave Leviton serial PIM (secondary) and RF remote (primary).
 
Note other OPII users have also added a Zigbee PIM and it is doing well for them.
 
4. Since you are using x10 and UPB did it require you to install 2 Powerline coupler/repeaters (one for x10 and one for UPB)?  The one I currently have i bought from smart home and it plugs in the dryer outlet (which is discontinued now) - but its gone bad and I need to replace it.  I've ordered an x10 direct wire unit - but before I install I want to make sure I don't need one for UPB as well.
 
Going to Jeff Volp's dual phased TW-523 removed my need for any sort of X10 powerline coupler or repeater.
BTW still have multiple CM11A's / TW-523's for my tinkering (with XTB amplifiers) and they work just fine.
 
Relating to UPB it depends on whether you get gen 1 (SA) or gen 2 and gen 3 UPB switches relating to a phase coupler or UPB repeater.
 
5. Any pitfalls I should be aware of going down this path?  Such as vendors to avoid - (proprietary or doesn't play well with other devices), mistakes to avoid, etc.
 
Really depends on how much you want to spend to upgrade and whether you want to do all Leviton HAI UPB HLC or just UPB.  Relating to combining UPB, X10, Z-Wave and or Zigbee I see no issues.  Personally here I came from the X10 days in the late 1970's.  Remote controlling a light switch or lamp/appliance module worked for me with no status.  You can still do that today.  My Leviton OmniPro 2 panel does just fine turning lights on or off.  No baggage it just works for me.
 
I am over the remote control stuff via a smartphone as I did play with that in the early 2000's.   I can today get to my stuff via my smartphone.  There really is no need to as it just works and I do not have to watch it work. 
 
Its pretty common to use multiple technologies.  Each is a bit different and many are complementary.  I use UPB for lights, but Zigbee for locks, thermostat, and a few other lights. I use RTS for shades and drapes, and GE wireless for security sensors.  It would be great if one technology could do it all, but that will never happen. 
 
Back
Top