Help with a UPB four way switch and blue/green LEDs

My electrician friend and I got things working - but the blue/green LEDs aren't accurately showing the status. I'm going to do my best to diagram how it is wired. These are all US-240s froms Simply Automated.

Top floor:

Line voltage comes in
Black/load capped.
White/neutrals capped.

Middle floor:
Black/load capped.
White/neutrals capped.

Downstairs:

Load goes out to lights
black/load capped.
white/neutrals capped.

And or course each is grounded.

The link is as follows:

Top floor switch:

No receive components
Transmit components - B 01, on/off button.
Currently, this one shows as blue regardless if the lights are on or off.

Middle floor switch:

No receive components
Transmit components - RT01, on button. RT02, off button.
Currently, this one shows as green regardless if the lights are on or off.

Bottom floor switch:

Receive Components - Lights - 100% snap
Transmit components - RT01, on button
Transmit components - RT02, off button

Some of these aren't dimmable so I want them to just snap on/off. At this point I believe they all work in terms of turning the lights on and off (top/middle definitely do) but the downstairs is down a lot of stairs and I don't want to go out in the rain again.

I also noticed that the 11-40s I have in a three way switch seem to have more options on the advanced edit tab (load controlled by rocker, store last level, etc) but they aren't available with the 240s. Which seems odd as the 240s should have more capabilities than the 1140s.

Any help would be appreciated. For the record, the three way switch is hooked up just like the four way (with the exception of the third light switch) and works exactly as I expect.

Thanks.

Are you using any of the remote switches? If yes they don't have bicolor LEDs.

If I understand what you describe, you have three 240s one on each floor. Is that correct?

You need to make sure you have the colors of LEDs properly set in UPStart. Both the 1140s and 240s have options to set the behavior of the LEDs.
Decide which color you want for on and which for off.

The 240 does not have the "Load controlled by rocker" option. You HAVE to use links to turn the 240 on and off. Even if it is a link sent from the 240 to itself. The 240 store last level option is on a different page.

The 240s have different capabilties not necessarily "more" capabilities.
Their strength is having multiple faceplate options.
Their weaknesses, no direct load control, no internal timer.

Desert_AIP said:

Are you using any of the remote switches? If yes they don't have bicolor LEDs.

If I understand what you describe, you have three 240s one on each floor. Is that correct?

You need to make sure you have the colors of LEDs properly set in UPStart. Both the 1140s and 240s have options to set the behavior of the LEDs.
Decide which color you want for on and which for off.

The 240 does not have the "Load controlled by rocker" option. You HAVE to use links to turn the 240 on and off. Even if it is a link sent from the 240 to itself. The 240 store last level option is on a different page.

The 240s have different capabilties not necessarily "more" capabilities.
Their strength is having multiple faceplate options.
Their weaknesses, no direct load control, no internal timer.

Click to expand...

I thought the 240s had direct load control. We wired it so the load goes to each switch.

I have modified the options on how to set the LEDs, but nothing changes regardless.

The bottom 240 does have the load - it's the only one that actually changes from blue/green when it is turned on and off. It's the other two that don't change. One is stuck on blue, one stuck on green.

Are you sure you aren't confusing the 240 with the USR regarding the "load control"?

I have HAI switches, not SA, but I think all of your switches need to both send and receive a common UPB link. This way they will all track the state of this link with their led indicator. The load switch should follow with its load as well.

email68 said:

I have HAI switches, not SA, but I think all of your switches need to both send and receive a common UPB link. This way they will all track the state of this link with their led indicator. The load switch should follow with its load as well.

Click to expand...

So should the load switch be configured any differently than the other two?

No.

On my HAI switches the local load always operates locally. The UPB link it transmits will keep the other switch indicators in sync.

When a non load switch transmits the UPB link in response to a button press, the load switch will respond by turning on its load and led indicator.

sc2k2 said:

I thought the 240s had direct load control. We wired it so the load goes to each switch.

I have modified the options on how to set the LEDs, but nothing changes regardless.

Are you sure you aren't confusing the 240 with the USR regarding the "load control"?

Click to expand...

The 240s can control a load but do not have "local control".
Meaning the rocker DIRECTLY controls the load attached.

On an 1140, if you slick all the programming, and check "Rocker controls local load" the light will operate.
On a 240, if you slick all the programming, nothing will happen. There is no local option.

The 240 will ONLY operate a load by receiving links.
To control the load attached to a 240 the 240 has to be setup so it sends out a link and responds to its own link.
That is a key difference between the two.

In general, if you do not need the multiple faceplate buttons of the 240, it is a best practice to connect loads to 1140s and use 240s as link transmitters. This is because of the local control capability of the 1140.

The HAI is similar to the 1140, HAI does not have a 240 analogue.

sc2k2 said:

The bottom 240 does have the load - it's the only one that actually changes from blue/green when it is turned on and off. It's the other two that don't change. One is stuck on blue, one stuck on green.

Click to expand...

sc2k2 said:

Top floor switch:

No receive components
Transmit components - B 01, on/off button.
Currently, this one shows as blue regardless if the lights are on or off.

Middle floor switch:

No receive components
Transmit components - RT01, on button. RT02, off button.
Currently, this one shows as green regardless if the lights are on or off.

Bottom floor switch:

Receive Components - Lights - 100% snap
Transmit components - RT01, on button
Transmit components - RT02, off button

Click to expand...

Do you only have one load you are trying to control, but are trying to control it from 3 separate locations?

If that is the case you have to setup ALL of the 240s as if they had the load attached in order for the LEDs to track the status of the load.

The red above is your problem with the LEDs.

So ALL of the 240s have to respond to the link that controls the load that is attached to the bottom switch.
For the two that do not have a load attached the receive link is really only updating the LED. But the only way for them to respond is by receiving the link. Make sure you cap the brown load output wire on the 240s without loads attached, because they are behaving as if they have loads attached, so high voltage will be available on the brown wire when the switch is ON.

If the other 240s are not setup to receive the link nothing will happen.

You didn't specify which links you are using for the transmit components.
They all have to be the same in order to control the light attached to downstairs.
In this case it looks like you named the link "Lights".
So all 3 need to have the ON link selected as "Lights" and the off link selected as "Lights.

After looking at it again I think this is what you want:

Top floor switch:
Receive Components - Lights - 100% snap
Transmit components - Lights - B 01, on/off button.
(I assume this is a multi button panel and not a rocker)

Middle floor switch:
Receive Components - Lights - 100% snap
Transmit components - Lights - RT01, on button.
Transmit components - Lights - RT02, off button.

Bottom floor switch:
Receive Components - Lights - 100% snap
Transmit components - Lights - RT01, on button
Transmit components - Lights - RT02, off button

Click to expand...

Also be aware the on/off button on the top switch can get out of sync.
This is a minor issue. But it tracks the status of it's own button only, it doesn't track transmissions from other switches or the actual state of the load controlled.
Let's say you use that button to turn on the lights, then turn them off with another switch. The next time you press that top button it will send an off command. If the lights are off, they will appear as if no action took place becasue an off command was sent. Pressing that button again will send the on command. So sometimes it may be necessary to press a toggle button twice to achieve the desired action.

sc2k2 said:

My electrician friend and I got things working - but the blue/green LEDs aren't accurately showing the status. I'm going to do my best to diagram how it is wired. These are all US-240s froms Simply Automated.

Top floor:

Line voltage comes in
Black/load capped.
White/neutrals capped.

Middle floor:
Black/load capped.
White/neutrals capped.

Downstairs:

Load goes out to lights
black/load capped.
white/neutrals capped.

And or course each is grounded.

Click to expand...

looking back at your original post.
I'm confused about your description of the wiring.
Are you retrofitting a previously installed 3 way (4 way) switch install?

What do you mean by "Capped"

All of the 240s need hot and neutral (black and white) connected regardless of whether or not they have loads.
The black and white and white are the network comms wires.

If only the downstairs has the load connected, it should be connected to the brown wire on the 240 to the load out (red?).

Desert_AIP said:

looking back at your original post.
I'm confused about your description of the wiring.
Are you retrofitting a previously installed 3 way (4 way) switch install?

What do you mean by "Capped"

All of the 240s need hot and neutral (black and white) connected regardless of whether or not they have loads.
The black and white and white are the network comms wires.

If only the downstairs has the load connected, it should be connected to the brown wire on the 240 to the load out (red?).

Click to expand...

First, thanks for all the help from you and email68. I'll try your suggestions when I get home.

We are replacing a previously installed four way switch. And it was odd enough to have my electrician buddy scratching his head for a little while, particularly as it sounds like the previous home owners may have used an incorrectly colored wire during the install. We're talking about three switches that power a total of 8 or 9 outside lights, going from the garage (bottom floor) to the first floor and then up to the second floor so I can see how wires would change along the way.

We called SA (who were great as always) and they said to do exactly what you suggested - which is what we did, or at least that was our intention and I'm 90% sure we did. All the switches can be programmed/controlled and can turn the lights on and off (even if I'm still working through these issues) so I assume we did the wiring correctly. I'm paranoid about keeping things code and safe, not sharing neutrals across circuits, etc.

Also, looking at the three way switch I mentioned, this morning it appears the LEDs are out of sync there too. So it sounds like a similar issue where the link needs to go to all of the switches. So even on the load switches, the rocker needs to be checked off to "transmit"?

One other oddity - the garage (bottom floor) switch isn't showing dark blue or green - just light blue. So I have dark blue, green, and light blue between the three switches! :nutz:

So it sounds like the wiring is correct. Just wanted to make sure.
If the LEDs are on, then I assume they at least have hot and neutral.

Definitely sounds like the links aren't programmed correctly.
I bet the one upstairs with the blue light is showing off and the middle floor greed LED is showing on if you polled their statuses (default color scheme).
The one withthe light blue sounds like it's been reprogrammed from the default scheme.

I think the bottom of my post above will fix everything.

Desert_AIP, thanks again for all the help. Both my three way and four way switches are working perfectly after following your advice. Very happy. :rockon:

Very well done Desert_AIP - both in the explanations, and in taking the time to explain! You seem to be as familiar with the switches as a person can get.

I know I personally don't like turning on loads on a 240 that are capped and go to nothing, but it's the only way to get the local light to accurately reflect status. I did some of those virtual-links at my last house... in this house I actually use the USR's quite a bit now that they have a Blue LED option, and I figured out some tricks on how to make it match pretty well. Not 100%, but I don't have to deal with the linking issue, and I saved a couple hundred bucks and simplified my network a little bit (helpful with over 60 programmable devices).

In the case of the controlled outlets or inline modules, I strongly recommend the USR's over the virtual three-ways because it sees the switch as part of the unit; ie: 5 taps of the USR puts the master into setup mode.

Work2Play said:

Very well done Desert_AIP - both in the explanations, and in taking the time to explain! You seem to be as familiar with the switches as a person can get.

Click to expand...

No big deal, but didn't we say the same thing ;-)

Glad you got it working sc2K2!

email68 said:

No big deal, but didn't we say the same thing ;-)

Glad you got it working sc2K2!

Click to expand...

Your posts gave me the incentive to go back and look at the original post.
So I'll yield the honors to you.

I'm sitll having trouble typing teh word "the" anyway...