Simply Automated Switches vs. Leviton UPB

Any downside to using SA UPB switches instead of Leviton - I can save a good amount of money over the course of switching out all the ones for the house...
 
Can I mix and match? 
 
If I have a Levtion PIM connected to my Omni IIe - can I program SA switches with that?  Or do I need a SA PIM?  (I'm using PC Access through network).
 
Thanks.

Simply Automated devices only support the UPB Gen 1 standard. This is because licensing Gen II and Gen III from PCS costs money, and Simply Automated didn't want to pay.  Gen 1 switches do not support a repeater, in fact it will cause problems.  Leviton switches are Gen III, which add some additional features, one being repeater support. Leviton switches also support HLC mode that the Omni can support. That's not to say Simply Automated switches don't support HLC, its just more difficult.
 
You can mix and match if you do it correctly, as there are some cavorts.  I own both.
 
As for prices, really look around. I know Worthington (ASI Home) sells them both for similar prices. Web Mountain even sells Simply Automated switches updated to Gen II firmware, but they are a bit more pricey.
 
A Leviton PIM works fine with both, as long as its not REALLY old.  Gen III and Gen II is backward compatible with Gen I

If I have a Levtion PIM connected to my Omni IIe - can I program SA switches with that?
 
No. 
 
Or do I need a SA PIM?
 
I have a floater USB UPB SA PIM and static Serial UPB HAI / SA PIMs that I use for Upstart.  I leave the HAI UPB PIM plugged in to my OmniPro 2 panel.
 
You can though utilize the SA switches in HLC mode on the Omni IIe. 
 
I utilize my OmniPro 2 in UPB mode utilizing an HAI UPB PIM. 
 
I have a hodgepodge of PCS, HAI and SA switches.  The newer ones are all SA. 
 
I program all of my UPB switches with Upstart. 
 
I also utilize software automation and have HAI / SA serial UPB PIMs connected to the software boxes (Homeseer). 

As Pete says leave your HAI PIM connected to your panel and don't touch it after that.
 
If I have a Levtion PIM connected to my Omni IIe - can I program SA switches with that?
 
As Pete says, No, BUT the Omni panel CAN program HAI switches using the panel with HLC, so in theory, you don't even need UpStart or a PC if you go all HLC.  I only occasionally use UpStart.

The nice thing about UPB is the set and forget about it.  No baggage as it just works. 
 
Using a Leviton HAI Omni IIe helps as these combo secrity / automation have been sold to as a set and forget piece of automation / security hardware.
 
Off on lark.....
 
I consider the lighting, HVAC, Audio Hardware, et al managing the heartbeat of the home; not really automation these days; just stuff that is integrated to the home and just works. 
 
These days talking to the Amazon Echo Alexa application and Microsoft Kinect application is to me the next level of home automation.  It is not really AI yet but in a way it can be AI.  Tomorrow the AI automation entity will be just that; a machine that manages your base household.
 
BTW as Ano above here use multiple technologies of automation protocals with my OmniPro 2.  Here have kept X10 and added Z-Wave .  While I do have Zigbee devices they are not connected to my OP2 panel today. (IE: use UPB, X10 and Z-Wave here with my OmniPro 2 panel).
 
Many Homeseer users today purchased older generation smart phones to be utilized as wireless consoles to their automation; works fine for them.
 
While the smart phone automation remote stuff changed with the times initially working with GPRS, 3G, LTE and 5G.  GPRS worked fine at modem like speeds back in the late 1990's with Treo and Microsoft CE Mobile; well then the very first 3G smart Microsoft smart phones worked well from me from wherever I was in the world at the time.

Sorry for the noob questions ... but what is the difference between HLC vs. UPB? 
 
Basically, I have a Omni IIe, I want to install UPB switches so I can turn them on and off through my Omni IIe (either through SnapLink - or condition based programs of Omni IIe)...
 
What do I need?  I was under the impression that if I had HAI switches, HAI PIM...the Omni IIe w/ PC Access I can achieve what I want?
 
Now if I put Simply Automated switches in...does that change things?
 
 
And regarding Upstart...do I need a separate PIM that connects to my laptop directly to use?

UPB is the standard, which the Omni supports great.  Just turning on and off lights is easy.  You program them with UPStart on a PC and control them with the panel.  You can control Simply Automated switches, PCS switches or HAI switches. 
That is pretty basic.  If you control a SINGLE light with the controller, it will know the status of the light. If you manually switch a light, it can tell the controller the status.
 
Now, PCS, the company that developed and licenses UPB came out with Gen II and Gen III.  Simply Automated switches don't support that which restricts the use of a repeater.  Some people like Simply Automated switches and I have used them, but keep in mind they use an older version firmware.  In any case, the panel can turn on and off any generation. Most other brands of switches like HAI are Gen III.
 
UPB is great but it has some limitation.  One is, when you use a "scene" sometimes called a "link", the panel loses track of the status of the switches.  A link controls many lights at once, so the switch status is NOT always maintained correctly.  This may cause problems, but that is another story.
 
Because of this, Leviton created HLC. It is a way that HAI has set up its UPB network.  It has several advantages over basic UPB, with one being status of switches is maintained.  Another is that the panel can actually program HAI UPB switches without a computer.  A final benefit is that if you use HAI room controllers and House controllers you can do more. I think a Omni IIe can control 8 rooms of lights. A "room" is a logical grouping of lights.
 
You tell the panel UPB or HLC in the setup.  In HLC mode, the panel scans the switches to get their status.  In UPB mode, status checking is something you have to do in programming. The negative of HLC is that it dictates a certain numbering and naming scheme, and some features only work with HAI switches.
 
So if you don't plan to have many switches, you can use UPB.  If you have a larger house, and want some status tracking, use HLC. By default, HLC works great with HAI switches.  Some added features work with non-HAI switches, but only when you manually program them. The panel can only program HAI switches, so the others you have to program them with UPStart using special information.
 
Last house was Simply Automated switches and UPB. This house is HLC and HAI switches.  My current house is much more sophisticated and was much easier to set up, but you need to learn HLC, and follow the rules, so really, its your choice.  If you take the time to learn HLC,  it adds a great deal to UPB, but only a few of us here use it. I myself would never not use it if I had the choice. Its just made my lighting much nicer.
 
> And regarding Upstart...do I need a separate PIM that connects to my laptop directly to use?
 
You don't HAVE to, but its a really good idea.

I use the HLC convention with my Omni Pro II and use Simply Automated switches almost exclusively.
I have more than 80 switches in three buildings.
With UPStart and creative programming within the HLC unit and link allocation scheme, I've been able to add additional functionality than what the standard HLC or the less flexible UPB scheme offer by themselves.
I don't use or need a repeater, I do use three couplers.
The current SA firmware has a lot the functionality of the later gen UPB firmware, such as timers and blink function built into the switches themselves, but they retain the more sensitive Gen I firmware.
I am on my own transformer, and my house is very UPB quiet, so I don't really need the lower sensitivity of the Gen II/III firmware.

OK so I think I got it. Sorry to be redundant but I want to make sure before investing a big chunk of money into a lot of switches.

If I decide that I don't really need the fancy features of HLC and scenes. I just want to be able to see if my lights are on and to turn then on and off remotely. And have a couple lights turn on based on certain conditions (like when I come home and disarm)...then the Simply Automated ones will work just fine. The key thing with those to look out for is the sensitivity and may need to add a couple couplers.

So that said if I go with the SA switches... I keep the HAI PIM to Omni IIe module in. Cause that allows my Omni IIe to read and control the switches (either SA or HAI). I will need to get upstart and a SA PIM to computer module if I want to program specific features on the SA switch? Like dimmer control etc...

Does that sound about right?

iJDUB said:

OK so I think I got it. Sorry to be redundant but I want to make sure before investing a big chunk of money into a lot of switches. If I decide that I don't really need the fancy features of HLC and scenes. I just want to be able to see if my lights are on and to turn then on and off remotely. And have a couple lights turn on based on certain conditions (like when I come home and disarm)...then the Simply Automated ones will work just fine. The key thing with those to look out for is the sensitivity and may need to add a couple couplers. So that said if I go with the SA switches... I keep the HAI PIM to Omni IIe module in. Cause that allows my Omni IIe to read and control the switches (either SA or HAI). I will need to get upstart and a SA PIM to computer module if I want to program specific features on the SA switch? Like dimmer control etc... Does that sound about right?

Click to expand...

You should be fine.
 
The thing about UPB and maybe home automation as a whole, is that there are so many layers, you really never know exactly what you want until you have it all installed, then you better understand all the small details.  No matter how much you read or plan, its one of those things that you learn best from experience.  Especially be leery of anything you read that says "it just works" because nothing ever does, but the good thing is, in most cases, its easily fixed.

For the record... Simply Automated products are 100% compatible with Gen I, II and III UPB.  They all communicate with and be programmed through split-phase and three-phase repeaters (whatever the Gen.).  They are compatible with many control systems including the Leviton/HAI OMNI panels; however not all control systems/panels utilize all features of UPB. 
 
To ensure proper status of an OMNI panel with Simply Automated devices we have written an application note describing thee ways status can be maintained in the OMNI panel.  See: http://www.simply-automated.com/UPB_home_automation_applications/UPB_home_automation_application_notes.php
 
I hope this helps...
 

MillardS said:

To ensure proper status of an OMNI panel with Simply Automated devices we have written an application note describing thee ways status can be maintained in the OMNI panel.  

Click to expand...

 
If you were using an Omni panel with SA devices, it is much simpler to just use the pre-allocated HLC room/unit/link ID's to get accurate status tracking.

JonW said:

If you were using an Omni panel with SA devices, it is much simpler to just use the pre-allocated HLC room/unit/link ID's to get accurate status tracking.

Click to expand...

Most SA switches (but not fan controllers and a few others) can be programmed in UPStart to work with Leviton HLC and maintain the status tracking BUT there are two features that don't work with SA switches that DO work with Leviton switches.  1) The panel can completely program each switch using PC Access or the console WITHOUT ever using UPStart and 2) Room scenes can be adjusted by just adjusting the dim levels of each light, and tapping the scene button on a room controller 5 times. 
 
The first feature saves lots of time, but with UPStart you can program the switches, but the second feature IS VERY NICE. So lets say you have a "dinner" scene in HLC but you want one light dimmer or brighter. Just adjust it, hit the room controller button 5 times and the scene is adjusted.  With SA switches, to change it, boot the computer, start UPStart, find the switch to adjust, program the switch, try it, and repeat to adjust it again. So 15 seconds to change it with Leviton switches vs. 15 minutes with SA.  The wife will LOVE the Leviton switch method.

Ano - I agree that there are benefits to using the Leviton/HAI switches.  My point was to SA/MillardS regarding the link he provided for the tech documents.  Their method of status tracking is to use the SA switches in UPB mode (UPB room mode in Omni panel) and to program a ton of status update requests in the Omni programming.  It would be much easier to just use the HLC allocation method with the SA switches and you wouldn't need all the programming to track the status (which of course we all here know).

Question - I am in the process of picking a technology to replace my x10 / smarthome pro keypad linc controllers and can you use a 35A00-1 or a CFL version as a fan speed controller? I see that SA makes one, but if I use the HLC setup I might not be able to use it properly. I have one fireplace fan and one ceiling fan I would like to control the speed on.