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#1 turbo427

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 02:26 PM

I have the main house and a garage about 100 ft apart. Can I daisy chain M1DBH and how do I lay it out. I need a keypad, M1XRFTW wireless expander and a M1XIN zone expander in the garage. I will also have a wireless expander in the main house for the sensors and 2 keypads maybe some other output devices. I remember reading that the wireless expander had to be in a certain data bus address so I wasn't sure how having one wireless in the main house (maybe 2) and another on in the garage would work. I would prefer to run one CAT6 from the main house plugged into a data bus to another data bus located in the garage then connect the wireless expander to the 2nd data bus in the garge along with zone expander, rather than run 4 home runs back to the main house to connect the data bus there.



#2 RAL

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:01 PM

The M1 allows you to have two data bus "branches."  

 

One approach would be to run one branch out to the garage, and place a M1DBH there, and then plug your other data bus devices, like the wireless expander and/or other zone expanders into the DBH.   Use the second data bus branch for connecting up devices in the main house (using a second M1DBH, if you like).

 

You can have multiple wireless expanders connected to the M1, each with its own bus address. So one for the main house and one for the garage is fine. 

 

Depending on how much stuff you need to provide power for in the garage, you may want to run a heavier gauge wire in addition to (or instead of) the CAT6.  100 feet isn't a terribly long distance, but you'll want to minimize voltage drop to the M1 devices.

 

Finally, you should consider protecting both ends of the cable between the house and the garage with surge protectors, like those from Ditek.



#3 turbo427

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:49 AM

Thanks that makes me feel better about only running one CAT6. Can I use remote power instead of running heavier gauge power cord could I plug into 110 in the Garage maybe even have it on a APC battery back up then power is local. Also how do plug up the data bus do they plug in parellel on th M1 board or does the second data bus plug into one of the ports on the first data bus. The wireless expander manual states

 

The M1XRFTW "two-way" transceiver must be addressed and enrolled as the 1st zone expander (Data Bus Address # 2) on
the M1 or M1EZ8 Control. For extended range and coverage up to 3 additional M1XRFTW transceivers may be installed. If
installed these must be enrolled as the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th zone expander (Data Bus Addresses 3, 4, and 5) on the M1 or M1EZ8
Control. If another hardwire or wireless expander is presently enrolled at one of these addresses it will be necessary to move
that device to another address in order to make accomodation for the M1XRFTW transceiver. Refer to Appendixes A, B, & C for
additional details on the use of multiple transceivers

 

Can you explain this to me confused as to which port the wireless expander will go in at the main house and at the garage

 

Thanks again for all your help



#4 DELInstallations

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:16 PM

You can run multiple hubs, provided you maintain 2 terminations on the entire system. You would wire the outgoing feeds in parallel at the M1 itself.

 

Problem with doing such with category cable is you effectively half your OAL for the bus from 4k'



#5 RAL

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:48 PM

Thanks that makes me feel better about only running one CAT6. Can I use remote power instead of running heavier gauge power cord could I plug into 110 in the Garage maybe even have it on a APC battery back up then power is local. Also how do plug up the data bus do they plug in parellel on th M1 board or does the second data bus plug into one of the ports on the first data bus. The wireless expander manual states

 

The M1XRFTW "two-way" transceiver must be addressed and enrolled as the 1st zone expander (Data Bus Address # 2) on
the M1 or M1EZ8 Control. For extended range and coverage up to 3 additional M1XRFTW transceivers may be installed. If
installed these must be enrolled as the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th zone expander (Data Bus Addresses 3, 4, and 5) on the M1 or M1EZ8
Control. If another hardwire or wireless expander is presently enrolled at one of these addresses it will be necessary to move
that device to another address in order to make accomodation for the M1XRFTW transceiver. Refer to Appendixes A, B, & C for
additional details on the use of multiple transceivers

 

Can you explain this to me confused as to which port the wireless expander will go in at the main house and at the garage

 

Thanks again for all your help

 

 

To wire up the two branches of the data bus, just wire them in parallel, placing 2 wires under each screw terminal on the M1 board.   Connect each of the two cables to a M1DBH (one in the garage, one in the house), and then plug your other device cables into the jacks on the DBH.   Each DBH should then have a terminating plug installed in the first unused jack.   No other terminators should be installed anywhere else.

 

You can place an auxiliary power supply with battery backup in the garage.  But there are some things to think about before you take that approach. 

 

You want a battery backed power supply because if you lose AC power, the M1 will be unhappy when the bus devices out there go missing.  A UPS isn't a good solution.  Better to use something like an Altronix AL400ULPD8 that is meant for this sort of thing.  They are often available on eBay at reasonable prices.

 

If you live in a cold climate and the garage is unheated, that may cause problems with the battery.  SLA batteries don't charge well below freezing and lose capacity the more the temperature drops.   In that sort of situation, you'd be better off keeping the power supply in the house and running a heavier cable to the garage.

 

With multiple Elk wireless receivers, you need to install them as shown in the examples in the M1XRFTW manual.  If you have 3 wireless receivers, you need to set them to addresses 2, 3 and 4.  Each receiver gets its own unique address set via the switches on the board.

 

The wireless receivers can provide up to 144 wireless zones.  You don't get more zones with the extra receivers, just a wider area of signal coverage.   If you don't want to use all 144 wireless zones, that's ok. You can install wired M1XIN expanders above the last block of 16 zones you plan to use.


With 3 wireless receivers, they will take up zones 17 to 64 at a minimum.  If you install a M1XIN at address 5, then its first zone will be zone 65.

 

A good practice is to install the M1XINs from the top of the bus address range and work down (e.g. bus address 12).  That will allow you to add more wireless zones later if need be, without having to move the M1XIN zone assignments because you grew into their original assigned range.

 

Below is a drawing of what I'm suggesting.

 

index.php?app=gallery&module=images&sect

 

The wired zones would be 1-16 in the house on the M1 itself, 161-176 in the house on the M1XIN installed there, 177-192 on the M1XIN installed in the garage.  The wireless zones would be 17-160, across all 3 M1XRFTWs.


Edited by RAL, 12 September 2017 - 10:03 PM.


#6 turbo427

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:06 AM

Thanks that was just what I needed. I understand the address it just like an IP group not a physical point on the bus. Do you think 14/4 gauge stranded wire will be ok or should I go small and solid. Thanks again very helpful I will be using the paralle design and keep power and battery in the house due to temperature. On that subject another question I remember ELK had a temperature sensor which I guess I could run an extra 14/4 wire to connect to the M1, but I still wanted 2 sensor down at the main house one inside and one with the 7 ft extension for outside, Can the M1 have 3 temperature sensors. Thanks again.



#7 RAL

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:28 AM

Thanks that was just what I needed. I understand the address it just like an IP group not a physical point on the bus. Do you think 14/4 gauge stranded wire will be ok or should I go small and solid. Thanks again very helpful I will be using the paralle design and keep power and battery in the house due to temperature. On that subject another question I remember ELK had a temperature sensor which I guess I could run an extra 14/4 wire to connect to the M1, but I still wanted 2 sensor down at the main house one inside and one with the 7 ft extension for outside, Can the M1 have 3 temperature sensors. Thanks again.

 

Yes, you can have multiple temperature sensors (M1ZTS and M1ZTSR), but they must connect to zone inputs on the M1, and not on any M1XINs.  The M1KP and M1KPB keypads also have built-in temperature sensors. Unfortunately, the M1KP2 and M1KP3 don't have the built-in sensors. 

 

For the wire gauge to use out to the garage, you need to consider how much current the devices out there will draw.  If you place just the M1XRFTW, M1XIN and M1KP out there, that would be a load of about 310 mA.   Elk has a current draw spread sheet that can help you calculate the loads.  Don't forget to include and other devices that need power that, like PIRs.  

 

100 feet of Cat6 would have a resistance of 5 Ohms, and would create a voltage drop of 1.6 Volts with that load.  This is too high, especially when power is out and the system is running on batteries.

 

18 gauge would have a resistance of under 1.3 Ohms, and 16 gauge would be 0.8 Ohms, giving voltage drops of 0.4V and 0.25V, respectively.  I would consider either of those to be acceptable.   If you used 14 gauge, that would bring it down to 0.16V.

 

Either solid or stranded wire is ok. It won't make a difference in the voltage drop.  Only the voltage conductors need to be heavier gauge.  The Data-A and Data-B conductors can be smaller, as they don't carry any significant current.  So you could run a 22/2 for data and 18/2 for power.   If you're pulling cable, I always like to pull some spare conductors, just in case there is a problem down the road.

 

Make sure you use outdoor rated cable, even if you run it in conduit. Water and moisture will get in there, no matter what.



#8 turbo427

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:42 AM

Thanks you've been very helpful. I am going with 14/4 coming off the M1 in parallel to 2 ELKM1DBH then I will use CAT6 to rest of the device. Hope to start pulling wire this weekend.






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