HDTV and Video Cards

a DVD is only going to be able to store 1, maybe 2 shows in HD format, that just isn't practical. Then you have the Dual Layer DVD's, but the media is still expensive, and HD-DVD is going to be a while before that's affordable. There are many other benefits of course, but it's hard to understand until you try it (it's addicting!)
 
Dan,
How many shows do you need to keep in HDTV format? What is your HDTV source? Once you watch it don't your delete it?
 
Treetop:

I'd still like to hear why you'd recommend against the ATI All in Wonder. It's only by knowing both sides you can make a good decision.

Do you have another recommendation also?

Thanks for all the input.
 
Rupp, many times (especially now the new seasons are starting), shows will overlap, and by the time one of them is over, I don't have enough time to watch them, and can't until later in the week or weekend, I usually have about 5 shows recorded all the time, but have had up to 10. With a PVR you can have it record series (such as Extreme Engineering on Disovery) you normally wouldn't watch due to bad scheduling, so I like to record those too for when nothing is on TV. I am not recording HDTV yet, as MCE 2004 doesn't support it, but hopefully in a month I can tell you more about it :lol:

SpaceCowBoy, I personally would stay away from the All In Wonders too if you want high quality recordings (unless you are talking about the new HDTV card), I would go for the Hauppauge, PVR series, they really are some of the best cards you can get.
 
Treetop:

I'd still like to hear why you'd recommend against the ATI All in Wonder. It's only by knowing both sides you can make a good decision.

Do you have another recommendation also?

Sorry about that... I lost track of this thread (caught hung up in the "wifi" thread :lol: )

Everything about to be typed is hear-say, as I have never owned a AIW...

ATI AIW's are good cards for what they do. You mentioned that you would like the freedom to record in multiple formats rather than being locked into mpeg2. That is a valid point, and one that can't be argued. ATI AIW's do have there place in a HTPC, albeit, a small place. Most people use the AIW to record in WMV format, as mpeg2 cannot be streamed (that I'm aware of). Another use, is that some peole will hook up there game consoles to their HTPCs (why? I have no earthly idea).

The reason why these are not the "preferred" card, comes down to the Qaulity of the recordings. As mentioned, the AIW's use software to encode the data, putting a lot of pressure on the CPU... so much in fact that you, even with a 2.4g CPU, you would only be able to record one stream at a time. You may even have problems recording and playing back at the same time (depends on computer). You certainly wouldn't want (or be able to) use the computer for anything else... note: you could probably still web surf, but the computer will be so sluggish, that you won't want to.

CPU on a 1.8g machine: AIW = 60 - 80% PVR-250= 3-15%

The taxing of the CPU can play a roll in quality, but even if you aren't maxing it out, the colors will not be as sharp, scenes with lots of motion (panning for one) will contain artifacts, etc. The picture is just not as good as the PVR cards!

One of the main reasons I suggest a PVR card, is that if you want to upgrade to multiple tuners (to record several channels at once), you will have the CPU cycles to spare.

Downside to the PVR-250 is that it doesn't have an output. You still need a decent video card for this. The PVR-350 has an onboard decoder for output, but due to limitations, can not display the desktop, etc... not ideal for me.

Almost every application has built in support for the PVR cards. Some, like Sage, ONLY support hardware encoding cards. To get around the "streaming problem" of mpeg2, Sage and BeyondTV -(soon) have clients that allow you to view your recordings on other computers on you network. Another option, built into BTV, but avaiblable outside of any program, is to transcode the mpeg2 into the format you want. BTV has automatic trancoding built-in for the WMV format (they used to have Divx, but something went wrong with the licensing and they dropped it). Upside - saves space, wmv can be streamed. Downside - takes a while to transcode a show, but you can set time parameters so it only does this overnight, etc.

There are other harware encoding cards on the market, but I can't remember any of the names off the top of my head.. I think one, is the E-homewonder (?)
There are just not as main stream as the PVR-250s.

Another card soon to released is the PVR-500 which has dual tuners on one card!

About the ATI dongle. Due to Macrovision, it is limited to outputing up to 480p. If you want to get high resolutions out of it, you need to use DVD-idle to break the macrovision. This is why I would choose a transcoder over the dongle, but both are good choices)

If you want to record High-Definition streams...
Currently, in the US (and Canada AFAIK), we can only record OTA (over the air) HD broadcasts. There are no cards that can record HD content off a cable or satellite box (I think this is still the case, I haven't really kept up with it lately).

I'm missing something else, but my brain just stopped in its tracks.

Treetop
 
I've got a few comments about Treetop's comments.

Let me start by saying that I do recommend the PVR250 because of quality and processor constraints. However, I have owned 2 different ATI AIW cards (the original RADEON AIW and an AIW 9700 (which is my current video card)).

I think the recording quality of the PVR250 is quite a bit better than what I get from the ATI. However, my PVR250 also has a cleaner cable feed than the ATI (because of location, cable length, etc.). When I directly connect a composite or svideo source to the ATI, the recording is better (than cable - probably still not as good as the Hauppauge). I'm running the ATI on a 1.8G P4 and the PVR250 on a VIA mini-ITX (M9000). The ATI has more processor power available but it also needs more.

Most people use the AIW to record in WMV
Not me. I'm being dragged into MS file formats kicking and screaming. :lol:

mpeg2 cannot be streamed
Well, there are players with built-in MPEG2 decoding that will play the files. You don't need to stream - but the point is valid (I think).

the AIW's use software to encode the data
There's nothing inherently lower quality about software encoding. In fact, it allows a lot more control/filtering of the video while it's being recording. ATI has several filters available during the recording process to clean up bad signals, etc. It's much easier to add/modify these if they are in software instead of hardware/firmware.

The taxing of the CPU can play a roll in quality, but even if you aren't maxing it out, the colors will not be as sharp, scenes with lots of motion (panning for one) will contain artifacts, etc. The picture is just not as good as the PVR cards!
I don't believe this is true in general. It depends on the processor in the PC, etc.

One of the main reasons I suggest a PVR card, is that if you want to upgrade to multiple tuners (to record several channels at once), you will have the CPU cycles to spare.
A good reason that I agree with completely.

A major drawback with the hardware encoding cards (like the PVR250) is in playing live tv or video. In order to play it, the PC will need to decode the MPEG2. This can eat all the clock cycles you are saving by using hardware encoding. For viewing live tv, the AIW does a good job without eating up cycles - hardware on the video card is used to directly pipe video into an overlay (the processor doesn't have to do much work).

Personally, I'm not concerned about watching live TV or recordings on my PVR machine. I have other ways to watch live TV (like a real TV or a Replay if I want to pause live TV). I don't need the PVR to do that. All I want it to do is record. Because of this, I can use the PVR250 with a low-power PC (the mini-ITX) without taxing anything or running into performance issues.

Files are copied from the PVR machine onto a server and then I use things like the MediaMVP to view them.

If your machine will be low-end and things like live TV are important to you, then you may need to consider the AIW. As I said before, I really recommend the PVR250. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the quality.

Note: All these comments on ATI are specifically for AIW video cards - not the standalone cards. I have a TV Wonder card that I've used a bit (it was really cheap at the time) but I don't think the quality was as good as the AIW (and when I put it into a new machine, it didn't like loading the drivers anyway) so I don't use it. It was only going to be used for frame-grabbing from a camera. I use a Hauppauge USB adapter for that, now (which I wouldn't recommend for recording TV because of performance issues but it works great as a frame grabber).
 
Treetop wrote:

About the ATI dongle. Due to Macrovision, it is limited to outputing up to 480p. If you want to get high resolutions out of it, you need to use DVD-idle to break the macrovision. This is why I would choose a transcoder over the dongle, but both are good choices)

------------------------------- sorry I'm not good at the quote thing-----------

This is interesting. So here's what I'm thinking/understanding:

If I drop a DVD movie I rented at Blockbuster into my HTPC, I will only be able to display 480P with my ATI dongle - "Unless" - I use a piece of software called "DVD-Idle." Is that correct? Does DVD-Idle run in realtime or do I need to "process" the DVD somehow before I can play it in a higher resolution?

If I use a transcoder, this negates the need for using DVD-Idle and will allow me to display up to 1080i from the transcoder.

I understand all the argument about using the PVR-250/350 for input and encoding. For arguments sake, I have that input piece covered. So my real concern is being able to drive output. I am soley picking the ATI for use displaying my media streams. My requirements are:

1) Must be able to connect HTPC to my Sony TV by component cables
2) Must be able to decode various streams but often will be MPEG2
3) Would like to support up to 1080i (for HDTV albeit probably in teh not so distant future)

If I use a transcoder, I guess I can pretty much use any quality VGA card. But the cost will be the transcoder and the vga card. If I use a AIW, my cost is only the AIW. Is that fair to say? Any recommendations for a non-ATI video card I could hook up to a transcoder?

Thanks to everyone for their input. I have to say each response tweaks a new idea or challenge to check out. Keep them coming...
 
The taxing of the CPU can play a roll in quality, but even if you aren't maxing it out, the colors will not be as sharp, scenes with lots of motion (panning for one) will contain artifacts, etc. The picture is just not as good as the PVR cards!

I don't believe this is true in general. It depends on the processor in the PC, etc
Now that I reread that... it is totally incorrect! Not really sure what idea I was trying to convey... :lol:


If I drop a DVD movie I rented at Blockbuster into my HTPC, I will only be able to display 480P
Drop a DVD into a "normal" dvd player..the best you can get is 480p!!! and thats with a progressive-scan player. Thats why people like HTPC's, they allow you to strip the macrovision and upscale them...
Does DVD-Idle run in realtime or do I need to "process" the DVD somehow before I can play it in a higher resolution?
I believe that you "attach" DVDidle to your DVDplayer, so when you load the dvd software, idle will kick in. I dont use it, so Im not to clear on that...
If I use a transcoder, this negates the need for using DVD-Idle and will allow me to display up to 1080i from the transcoder.
Yes. Also, using a DVI or VGA cable will negate the need for DVDidle... only the ATI dongle has macrovision (built-in?)
If I use a transcoder, I guess I can pretty much use any quality VGA card. But the cost will be the transcoder and the vga card. If I use a AIW, my cost is only the AIW. Is that fair to say? Any recommendations for a non-ATI video card I could hook up to a transcoder?
AIW is all you would need (for capturing and displaying). Non-ATI video cards? Nvidia 5200, 5600 are ones that come to mind, but I bought a ATI9600Pro a while back and haven't look back, so I'm not up to date on video cards.

Edit: a Matrox G400 video card is inexpensive and from what I've read, is an excellent choice as well...
Also, my earlier reference to streaming, should be taken as... streaming over the internet. Using BeyondTV (not sure about Sage), you can be at work, log into your HTPC, and stream shows (the boss loves it when your watchin' tv at work ;) ). If they are in mpeg2 format, you have to download them.
 
Just an update as to what I've decided.

I'm using a pvr-250 as my input source and will be using an Nvidia 440 as my output thru a trancoder 2200 from Cresendo Systems. The component out will be hooked up to my Sony projection tv and will be tweaked using powerstrip.

Now, I just need to decide on a mid-tower size case (as I want space and an ATX motherboard). Something classy, quiet and silver.

Once it's built, I'll let you know the results.
 
SpaceCowboy said:
Any recommendations for a non-ATI video card I could hook up to a transcoder?
It may be a little late, but here's my $0.02 on video cards. If your going to have your htpc in the living room where it's out in the open get a fanless ATi Radeon 9600.

They support DX9, are relatively inexpensive, but more importantly they're quiet. Making your htpc whisper quiet is a must if you're going to have it in an open room and quite often even if they're in an enclosure they can still be too loud. Unless you're gaming the only thing you're going to need to compare is the 2-D performance of the video cards you're looking at. It's my understanding that there's not enough of a difference between the 9600 and the cards above it to warrant the extra cost.

As far as cases go, I started out with the Lian-Li PC9300. Big mistake. First off it's a mATX board. Not enough room even for what little I was using it for. Glad to hear you're avoiding mATX. On top of that it runs HOT. I had to replace the motherboard in it, which I attribute to the heat.

After getting the new mobo, an ABit NF-7S v2 I went ahead and picked up an Antec SLK3700.

It's a good solid case. It looks decent enough, although I have mine in a closet so looks aren't critical, but there's plenty of space and it's layed out well.

I'm pretty sure that the porche of HTPC cases right now are the Kanam line of cases. With few exceptions I've heard that they're rock solid cases and they look great. They are a little spendy though.

I'd also recommend you take a peek at
this thread which lists a bunch of different cases and suppliers.
 
well I have been using the ATI dongle for a while now, and while it works great, I ran into the DVD Copy Protection issue, MCE refuses to play any DVD's which have the protection scheme included, and I am hoping it's because the dip switches are set for 1080i, but this seriously sucks !$% considering I paid for these DVD's, and I want to play them the way I see fit.
 
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