Home automation DIY project

[jkmonroe]

yeah, you can homerun the loads to switch banks located somewhere else if thats what you really wanted to do.
 
so each of your 5 LED zones would wire together, and then homerun back to a single switch somewhere else (electrical closet, switch bank in basement, wherever).  then you put a single 6 button keypad and your touchscreen nearby.

 

[dementeddigital]

The modules like the UPB you mentionned can't be directly connected to the leds somewhere in a control panel?

 
The modules would connect between the AC power wiring (breaker panel) and the AC power input to the LED's power supply.  This power supply may or may not be part of the fixture - still not sure what kind of LED lights you are trying to control or if they are dimmable and by what means, etc.
 
You should have a chat with your electrician.  Electrical code may require certain switches in certain locations.  I'm not an electrician.
 
Unless you are installing a complete centralized lighting system (not cheap), I'd just wire the house normally instead of bringing everything back to a central location without switches on any walls. 
If you are installing a complete lighting system with centralized wiring, I'd probably not DIY it unless you really understand every aspect of it - including (especially!) electrical code.
 
That's just my opinion, though.  YMMV.

 

[JonW]

My personal opinion is that if you home run all the wiring back to a central location and only run the lighting via automation, you're going to take a big hit whenever the house is sold.  People expect switches in the obvious locations when entering rooms.  Plus, how are guests going to interact with your lighting?   I'd suggest putting the switches in the normal locations, but use automation switches (like UPB) that allows both local control as well as fully automated control.

 

[cobra]

What are you thinking of the touch screen to do?  I see some people say they want to just use a touch screen, but then they end up with a touch screen with a picture of 5 to 20 buttons instead.  While it looks a little better, it just replaces a bunch of mechanical switches with pictures of switches...  So, what would you like the touchscreen to look like or do that is different than a few mechanical switches?

 

[RAL]

My personal opinion is that if you home run all the wiring back to a central location and only run the lighting via automation, you're going to take a big hit whenever the house is sold.  People expect switches in the obvious locations when entering rooms.  Plus, how are guests going to interact with your lighting?   I'd suggest putting the switches in the normal locations, but use automation switches (like UPB) that allows both local control as well as fully automated control.

:hesaid:
 
In addition, if all you have is a touch screen on the wall what are you going to do when the automation system crashes, or some critical component like the touch screen dies and needs to be replaced?  Sit in the dark?  This will happen at some point.
 
I would leave switches in the expected locations, as JonW suggests for manual control when you need it. Consider the touch screen as an alternate method of controlling things, even if that's what you use most of the time.   Hang some artwork over the switches if you don't like looking at them. 

 

[Del91574]

You're also going to run into difficulty if you try to install too many combo switches in standard boxes in the walls, like the triple decora switch that was shown. Box fill is going to be an issue.
 
The code only specifies switch location for interior stairwells and storage or equipment space. (Article 210.70(A)(2)(c) & (3)) The NEC is not a design book. Closest argument could be 404.8A
 
Receptacle location is an entirely different story. (210.52A)
 
You either have to pony up for a centralized load style system and the related headaches that come along with installing a 120V system into them (not recommended for a first timer or DIY) or conventionally wire the house and then control it other ways.

 

[jeditekunum]

I know just about everyone here is a huge fan of UPB. I've never used it. I, perhaps unfortunately, have an Insteon setup with about 40 devices. I'd say its pretty good as far as reliability goes but I would not say that it is 100%. On occasion I see that something didn't happen and looking at my controller logs see that a command failed. Error recovery, more likely an Indigo problem, is weak.
 
Many have said they never had a problem with UPB. But can it be said that nobody has had a problem? I have no argument with saying it's the best if we are talking traditional wiring setup.
 
At this point of technology evolution I expect my lighting automation to work 100% of the time. I'm willing to pay more for that. I'm willing to wire my new house differently to get it. And that's just for plain old warm white; RGBW(W) gets a lot more complicated.
 
Now I'm certain that a centralized system can fail as well. But more likely a complete failure and, more importantly, a failure that is much easier to diagnose and fix.
 

 

[jaymartin]

Error recovery, more likely an Indigo problem, is weak.

 
How so? Insteon has built-in retries (at the protocol level) so if a failure comes back from the PowerLinc then retries have already taken place.

 

[jeditekunum]

How so? Insteon has built-in retries (at the protocol level) so if a failure comes back from the PowerLinc then retries have already taken place.

 
Not enough IMO.
 
I get things like this several times a day:
 
  Error                           "MBR Switch" on to 100; send failed (no acknowledgment)
 
  Error                           "MBR Switch" raw insteon command; send failed (no acknowledgment)
  INSTEON Commands Error          Failed to get current LED states for device 226012366 - aborting
 
  Error                           failed to read imeter data (calculated crc: 14C8, received crc: 0000)
 
MBR Switch is a new KeypadLinc (2334-232, firmware 45).
 
PowerLinc is a 2412U.

 

[roussell]

Not enough IMO.
 
I get things like this several times a day:
 
  Error                           "MBR Switch" on to 100; send failed (no acknowledgment)
 
  Error                           "MBR Switch" raw insteon command; send failed (no acknowledgment)
  INSTEON Commands Error          Failed to get current LED states for device 226012366 - aborting
 
  Error                           failed to read imeter data (calculated crc: 14C8, received crc: 0000)
 
MBR Switch is a new KeypadLinc (2334-232, firmware 45).
 
PowerLinc is a 2412U.

 
Interesting, I literally never get errors like this. I have an all Insteon home (with pool pumps, many switching power supplies and CFL lights) and it and Indigo have both been flawless. I did run a dedicated circuit straight from the main panel to where the PLM is located (a throwback from the bulletproofing days of X10) but that has been the only precaution taken in the house. I have around 40 devices - about 1/2 being dual-band - spread across three floors and outside in the back yard. I've never tried UPB, but if I didn't have such great success with Insteon, I'd go to it based on the excellent reviews I've read through the years. I've never tried Zwave either, but I've never gotten a warm-and-fuzzy feeling from it for some reason. 
 
Terry

 

[ano]

Many have said they never had a problem with UPB. But can it be said that nobody has had a problem? I have no argument with saying it's the best if we are talking traditional wiring setup.

I think you might have misunderstood on UPB.  Its definitely not always perfect "out-of-the-box" and with just switches, there is a good chance you can have problems. But with UPB the difference is there are added solutions.  In some cases a phase coupler can fix things. I am a very big fan or a UPB repeater, which costs a bit more but I think its worth it.  In rare cases you may need to filter the powerline for really "problem" devices, but not very common. 
 
I'm not an expert on Insteon, but isn't it X-10 and RF?  So if it isn't 100% are there solutions?  There is no reason a USB network can't be brought up to 100% even if it isn't at the start.

 

[jeditekunum]

Insteon is far better than X10, even before dual-band (power & RF) became common. Dual-band eliminates the need for a coupler/repeater. I would guess that something like 75% of my ~40 devices are dual-band.
 
My setup happens to have a couple of UPS near the power panel and the PLM is not. I've got filters on the lines to the UPS. I wonder if the filters aren't also messing with the power panel side.
 
While Insteon (and UPB based on comments here) can be very good, I just don't have faith that either a powerline or RF solution can be 100%. Theory, of course, is that they can be. When they aren't, it's no fun trying to figure out how to fix.
 
There is no other option when retrofitting an existing property. But building presents more choices. The only down-side I can see for centralized (well, pretty much anything will likely end up hybrid at some point) is cost. That's certainly not a small obstacle (I can't afford traditional high-end multi-milllionaire class systems). I think Loxone, Centralite+OmniPro, or OmniBus+OmniPro would be within my budget.
 
I also like the idea of a centralized system forcing better wiring layout - not the spaghetti bowl that is so common.

 

[LarrylLix]

I use almost exclusively Insteon, with a few X10 devices where not critical and very close to the distribution panel.

I have no filters, no repeaters, extenders or any of that primitive nonsense perpetuated in the early days.

I only have one caveat with the system, with an Insteon keypad I use for combination locking, with rapidfire key pressing. The unit is directly over top of my dual inverters and hicoughs at certain times of the day. A second combination entry fixes the miss.

If somebody has trouble with Insteon they have a noise generating device involved that needs to be addressed.

RF only systems have trouble with all metal wiring boxes getting the signal out. Insteon is a simultaneously repeating dual band/mesh network, that reinforces it's signal with more devices simultaneously repeating the signal in phase. Some report success with outbuilding devices over 500 feet away from their last house device.

 

[jeditekunum]

I have no filters, no repeaters, extenders or any of that primitive nonsense perpetuated in the early days.

I only have one caveat with the system, with an Insteon keypad I use for combination locking, with rapidfire key pressing. The unit is directly over top of my dual inverters and hicoughs at certain times of the day. A second combination entry fixes the miss.

If somebody has trouble with Insteon they have a noise generating device involved that needs to be addressed.

 
So your setup is not 100% either. The problem happens to occur with user input where you can manually perform the retry 
 
It's easy to say a noisy device needs to be addressed. It's not so easy to actually do it when the problem appears only a few times a day at random times.
 
Intermittent noise should be expected in any installation. As long as it isn't constantly creating problems the system should handle it flawlessly. In my case, I think the built-in Insteon protocol recovery is insufficient. Indigo should wait a second and retry, maybe multiple times.

 

[LarrylLix]

 
So your setup is not 100% either. The problem happens to occur with user input where you can manually perform the retry 
 
It's easy to say a noisy device needs to be addressed. It's not so easy to actually do it when the problem appears only a few times a day at random times.
 
Intermittent noise should be expected in any installation. As long as it isn't constantly creating problems the system should handle it flawlessly. In my case, I think the built-in Insteon protocol recovery is insufficient. Indigo should wait a second and retry, maybe multiple times.

True but as you know, Insteon uses two different methods of communication, handshakes, and retries. It can't get much better than that by machine and takes human intervention to improve it further for non-dedicated wireless protocols.