[How-To] Monitor The Status of Your Washer/Dryer/Furnace

[jwilson56]

I have been having a hard time finding some high temp wire to use inside a furnace. I just need several feet.


:-(

 

[Squiddy]

The computer power cords are often pretty small gauge wire, I would think that the cord used should be at least as large as the power cord on the appliance.

Very good point! Not something you want to overlook and I should have mentioned that in the guide. I did however check before hand and the cord to my washing machine is 18/3 which is what the computer cord is.

What gauge wire is used? Solid 22/2? Sorry for the newb question, but I guess I could use good primer on gauge vs. capacity, etc. What's confusing me is that it must be "rated 300V or 600V". Does this basically mean that gauge and length must allow the cable to present a 300V potential at the other end? Surely not, so I must have the wrong idea. Just curious about what it means is all.

Take a look at this: American Wire Gauge Table. Here you will find all of the wire gauges and the maximum current that each can handle. Computer cords (at least the ones I have) are 18/3 stranded. Based on the wire gauge table, you can put a maximum of 16 amps through 18 gauge wire. Most circuits in your house are 15 amps so for short runs like this, 18 gauge is fine. The 300V or 600V rating is required because your low voltage wiring will be running into the same enclosures as your high (120VAC) voltage wiring and everything has to be rated for the highest voltage present. Hope this makes sense.

I have been having a hard time finding some high temp wire to use inside a furnace. I just need several feet.

You've tried places like Home Depot? They sell wire in bulk and they must have some furnace wire or at least something that has a higher temperature rating. Did you look at your furnace? What temperature rating is required in the U.S.?

 

[jwilson56]

Well I talked to a guy that worked at a new Home Depot by me and he said that he has worked for a few places in the area and nonbody sells the 105C rated wire. He recommenced to try an appliance repair shop next.

 

[Lagerhead]

Based on the wire gauge table, you can put a maximum of 16 amps through 18 gauge wire.

I think you need to be more conservative than this. 16 gauge is ordinarly rated only to 13 amps, even for short runs. When you can find an 18 gauge extension cord for sale, they are ordinarly rated for 5 amps or 625 watts.

 

[Squiddy]

I think you need to be more conservative than this. 16 gauge is ordinarly rated only to 13 amps, even for short runs. When you can find an 18 gauge extension cord for sale, they are ordinarly rated for 5 amps or 625 watts.

Again, very true. You definitely are better off running a larger gauge wire when doing this. I was only adding a couple of feet of wire to the overall length of the cord and that is 18/3 is what I had lying around. Instead of the computer power cable, you should probably go and buy a 16 or 14 gauge short extension cord and use that instead.

 

[jwilson56]

I think you need to be more conservative than this. 16 gauge is ordinarly rated only to 13 amps, even for short runs. When you can find an 18 gauge extension cord for sale, they are ordinarly rated for 5 amps or 625 watts.

Again, very true. You definitely are better off running a larger gauge wire when doing this. I was only adding a couple of feet of wire to the overall length of the cord and that is 18/3 is what I had lying around. Instead of the computer power cable, you should probably go and buy a 16 or 14 gauge short extension cord and use that instead.

Well you could always measure the voltage at both ends when the washer is running to see if there is a drop. I used a short heavy duty extension cord for mine.

 

[mustangcoupe]

Based on the wire gauge table, you can put a maximum of 16 amps through 18 gauge wire.

I think you need to be more conservative than this. 16 gauge is ordinarly rated only to 13 amps, even for short runs. When you can find an 18 gauge extension cord for sale, they are ordinarly rated for 5 amps or 625 watts.

I beleive the rating is for a single strand of 18 guage wire not bundled with any other wires in a cable.. They de-rate the wire if it is a bundle vs. a single wire.

 

[asteinmetz]

This is a really fascinating thread and it got me thinking way "above my pay grade," as they say. I'd like send the washer status wirelessly. My elk has a Caddx wireless receiver and I have z-troller on Homeseer so I could go two ways. jwilson56 suggested hooking in an NX-650 wireless door sensor - that would go to the caddx. I could also use a Z-Wave door sensor. I assume John was talking about cracking open the NX-650 sensor and using the output of the Mamac current sensor instead of the reed switch.

Then it occured to me that the Mamac current sensor is working by magnetic induction anyway. Couldn't I just wrap a few windings of the one of the AC wires around a bolt to make an electromagnet and use that in place of the magnet piece of the door sensors? I could calculate the number of windings necessary or use trial and error. The whole mess would mount easily in a box and seems even easier to hack together, not to mention cheaper.

It seems too easy. Am I missing something?

 

[jwilson56]

This is a really fascinating thread and it got me thinking way "above my pay grade," as they say. I'd like send the washer status wirelessly. My elk has a Caddx wireless receiver and I have z-troller on Homeseer so I could go two ways. jwilson56 suggested hooking in an NX-650 wireless door sensor - that would go to the caddx. I could also use a Z-Wave door sensor. I assume John was talking about cracking open the NX-650 sensor and using the output of the Mamac current sensor instead of the reed switch.

Then it occured to me that the Mamac current sensor is working by magnetic induction anyway. Couldn't I just wrap a few windings of the one of the AC wires around a bolt to make an electromagnet and use that in place of the magnet piece of the door sensors? I could calculate the number of windings necessary or use trial and error. The whole mess would mount easily in a box and seems even easier to hack together, not to mention cheaper.

It seems too easy. Am I missing something?

The NX-650 has the option to use external contacts and in the ElkRP wireless setup there are options to tell it to use those. As for your home built current sensor... if it were only so simple... good luck with that...hehehe

 

[Lagerhead]

As for your home built current sensor... if it were only so simple... good luck with that...hehehe

John you are right but your comment highlights something very interesting here, namely the variety of strengths and weaknesses in each of us. Some of us are uncomfortable pushing the hardware envelope, or software, or doing electrical work, or video, whatever. On the other hand, when you are strong in a particular area, of course you can be inclined to take advantage of it, but you hope not to an absurd degree.

I have to laugh sometimes when a comment comes up here such as "Why are you wasting your time doing [abc] when you can buy [xyz item]?" Always good advice to point out the path of least resistance. But I am guilty of this too, particularly with software, where I have written many lines of code to accomplish what is generally available off the shelf. And there are probably fewer "dead ends" in software than in the hardware realm.

 

[pablito]

The computer power cords are often pretty small gauge wire, I would think that the cord used should be at least as large as the power cord on the appliance.

Very good point! Not something you want to overlook and I should have mentioned that in the guide. I did however check before hand and the cord to my washing machine is 18/3 which is what the computer cord is.

What gauge wire is used? Solid 22/2? Sorry for the newb question, but I guess I could use good primer on gauge vs. capacity, etc. What's confusing me is that it must be "rated 300V or 600V". Does this basically mean that gauge and length must allow the cable to present a 300V potential at the other end? Surely not, so I must have the wrong idea. Just curious about what it means is all. <_<

Take a look at this: American Wire Gauge Table. Here you will find all of the wire gauges and the maximum current that each can handle. Computer cords (at least the ones I have) are 18/3 stranded. Based on the wire gauge table, you can put a maximum of 16 amps through 18 gauge wire. Most circuits in your house are 15 amps so for short runs like this, 18 gauge is fine. The 300V or 600V rating is required because your low voltage wiring will be running into the same enclosures as your high (120VAC) voltage wiring and everything has to be rated for the highest voltage present. Hope this makes sense.

Ok, I think I get it... although a 22/2 would suffice from a pure amperage/power perspective (as it is only a dry contact), the 18 gauge (or even 16 it sounds like?) is needed for a code and safety perspective. What threw me is that the Wiring Your Home 102 guide, in the automation section bullet 4 states "Run 22/4 security wire or CAT5e to the laundry for appliance monitoring". So does this statement have something completely different in mind? I am pre-wring the house next week and had intended to run the 22/4 as suggested.

So back to the gauge thing for a second now (thirsty to understand more), I had a look at the AWG table and see that you've used the "Maximum amps for chassis wiring" rating and not the "Maximum amps for power transmission" rating. Why is that given that the computer wire runs all the way back to the automation panel?

In the case of the dryer, should an even lower gauge cable be used given that it is a 220V appliance?

 

[Lagerhead]

What threw me is that the Wiring Your Home 102 guide, in the automation section bullet 4 states "Run 22/4 security wire or CAT5e to the laundry for appliance monitoring". So does this statement have something completely different in mind? I am pre-wring the house next week and had intended to run the 22/4 as suggested.

So back to the gauge thing for a second now (thirsty to understand more), I had a look at the AWG table and see that you've used the "Maximum amps for chassis wiring" rating and not the "Maximum amps for power transmission" rating. Why is that given that the computer wire runs all the way back to the automation panel?

You should always recognize a hard separation between [a] low-voltage "security wire", CAT5, video runs, etc., on the one hand, and all of the "house-current" electrical wiring in your home on the other hand. In general, the two should never meet. When they do, we use interfaces such as the CT-800 to keep them isolated from one another.

You probably know that there is an electrical code, building codes and regulations that govern all wiring in a home. You need to have a working knoweldge of these regulations to know where you have flexibility to do wiring, versus where you must have a licensed electrician involved. This is a critically important matter of safety which should not be trifled with. Do you have an electrician friend who can look over your situation and give you some first-hand advice?

The reason there are different ratings for chassis wiring as against other types comes down to heating in the wire. All wiring throws off a bit of heat when carrying current, and the heat has to have someplace to go. For safety reasons, we want our wires to stay cool. A single conductor such as in a chassis run can radiate its heat in all directions and so remain cool. Extension cords and in-wall wiring are conservatively assumed, again entirely for safety reasons, to be unable to shed the heat. This is because they might end up in confined areas, such as surrounded by insulation. So their current-carrying capacity is "derated" to a level where heating is not significant, so the wiring should be safe in any installation circumstance.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I did not read through the entire thread, but I think some confusion exists between the gauge of wire to use for the applicance's power vs the gauge of wire used for the contact closure from the current sensor.

As was suggested above, the gauge of wire to use for the appliance power (if extending it) should match the cord currently on the applicance. Running a few more feet is not going to create any problems.

You can run 22 gauge (or even Cat5) wiring for the contact closure. If it's a true contact closure and your running it into something like an Elk M1 many, many tens of feet in length will not make a difference.

Of course I may be missing a point somewhere, so please let me know if I'm not stating a correct answer to the actual question/problem! <_<

 

[jwilson56]

I did not read through the entire thread, but I think some confusion exists between the gauge of wire to use for the applicance's power vs the gauge of wire used for the contact closure from the current sensor.

As was suggested above, the gauge of wire to use for the appliance power (if extending it) should match the cord currently on the applicance. Running a few more feet is not going to create any problems.

You can run 22 gauge (or even Cat5) wiring for the contact closure. If it's a true contact closure and your running it into something like an Elk M1 many, many tens of feet in length will not make a difference.

Of course I may be missing a point somewhere, so please let me know if I'm not stating a correct answer to the actual question/problem! <_<

BSR I think the point was started when someone noticed the smaller size wire being used for the actual power. Personally I use 14ga heavy duty extension cords when I want to create an adapter.

 

[pablito]

Clouds are clearing, skies are blue again...

BSR: Reviewing the thread, I think you're exactly right. In my last post, I confused the whole 18 vs. 16 gauge discussion in the last few posts as relating to the dry contact cable running back to the Elk or whatever. Thanks for spotting this! So I CAN just run 22/4 as planned for this type of application then... phew, a bit of confidence restored.

Lagerhead: Always good advice, and thanks for clarifying the chassis vs. transmission ratings. Makes perfect sense and I think helps me with another question, but I'll leave that for another thread.

That said, this leaves me unclear with respect to my original question. What is meant by "300V or 600V rated" when speaking of the dry contact cable? Does that somehow refer to the jacket material of the 22/4 so that it may be in the presence of high voltage? Thanks guys, I'm almost there...