HVAC Thermostat Automation

[ccmichaelson]

New Construction - just started to pull wire.  
 
Is it possible to have the HVAC guys remote located temp sensors on each floor (rather than the big ugly temp controllers they always put in the hallway) such that the controllers could be in the mechanical room?  I have an Elk M1 that I could use to determine the temp but I'm not sure how I could automate the HVAC turning on/off.  I'll also have an ISY994izw controller...
 
In a nutshell, I'd like to remote control my HVAC as well as located both controllers in the mechanical room so that the HVAC controllers aren't mounted in the hallways.
 
Thx!

 

[LarrylLix]

Many people are using the ISY994 with the Nest as well as other brands of thermostats. Some take a bridge to interface. Best to read and ask at the UDI forum where many have done this already.

 

[Neurorad]

Start by asking the HVAC company what brand they usually use, and ask if they've ever remotely mounted temperature sensors.

This is a common practice, in high-end homes.

I think my generic Honeywell t-stats support remote temperature probes, though not sure of the distance, or if they take the average between the probe and t-stat. It's been a few years since I read the instructions.

I've read of many Crestron installs using remote temp probes, with the t-stat in the mechanical room.

 

[pvrfan]

The Ecobee3 supports up to 32 remote sensors--both temperature and occupancy.  There are a number of programming choices to determine determine how the inputs are used.
 
https://www.ecobee.com
 
Craig
 
Their catch phrase is:  "For homes with more than one room."

 

[pete_c]

In a nutshell, I'd like to remote control my HVAC as well as located both controllers in the mechanical room so that the HVAC controllers aren't mounted in the hallways.

 
Here I just post contruction installed my Leviton HAI Omnistat 2.  It has a retro look to it and just works for me.
 
The serially connected thermostat has optional temperature sensors and the Leviton OmniPro II panel has remote temperature and humidity devices. 
 
It can be mounted in the mechanical room, remote controlled using the remote temperature sensors attached to it.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Other than the HAI Omnistat 2, are there any thermostats that don't require a "cloud" API, and can be integrated with the ISY without running an extra peice of software on a PC (of any OS) as an intermediary/glue? Preferably with remote sensors as an option.

 

[giesen]

One of the Z-Wave thermostats? I use an Aprilaire 8800, but have an Elk M1 in between.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Using the Elk would be acceptable once I get it installed (new house, has existing panel, so most of the work is done, but haven't gotten around to it yet...), though it would be fine or perhaps better if there was one that didn't need the Elk (I'd rather not have too much non-critical/HA stuff directly attached to the Elk). I guess the Omnistat mentioned previously is also going through the Elk, though.

 

[giesen]

Using the Elk would be acceptable once I get it installed (new house, has existing panel, so most of the work is done, but haven't gotten around to it yet...), though it would be fine or perhaps better if there was one that didn't need the Elk (I'd rather not have too much non-critical/HA stuff directly attached to the Elk). I guess the Omnistat mentioned previously is also going through the Elk, though.

 
If the plan is to get an Elk anyways, then I suggest you go that route (although you can certainly look at Z-Wave thermostats as well). The Elk actually makes a great input/output device for the ISY. It supports a ton of devices, is expandable, and is extremely reliable. The one area where it falls flat is Automation (automation is pretty weak and it has a very limited amount of memory for automation rules, etc) but fortunately that's where the ISY excels. I do all of my lighting/HVAC automation from the ISY, and only have a few security-related rules running directly on the Elk.
 
Just a note that hooking up the Aprilaire to the Elk is not particularly cheap (requires at a minimum an ELK M1XSP, the Aprilaire 8811 protocol adapter, a transformer and the Thermostat itself), but it's an attractive touchscreen thermostat (not as nice as a Nest, but miles ahead of the OmniStat) and can be expanded to a zoned system if you ever want to do that (just need to add the 8819 distribution panel, additional thermostats, and whatever zone dampers you need). I'm on an unzoned system but still got a 8819 distribution panel in my furnace room because that's where my thermostat wire terminates, and then I have a CAT5 that goes back to the room where my Elk and the procotol adapter are.
 
The 8800 supports multiple external temperature sensors (using averaging), and can also control a humidifier and an EAC (electronic air cleaner). It also has support for attaching a themostat for the outside air temperature.
 
The simpler and cheaper solution of course is to get a Z-Wave thermostat (I'd ask on the UDI forums for what models are good/well-supported). At the time I got the Aprilaire there was no support for Z-Wave on the ISY and the Z-Wave thermostat market was still quite immature, but if I had to do it all over again I'd probably still go the Aprilaire route as I'm a fan of hard-wired reliability.

 

[Bzncrewjr]

Can the ecobee3 integrate with HA like the Omnipro?
 
I got an email from Amazon touting how great it interfaces with the Echo which is cool.  But not cool if it can't integrate with my other stuff.
 
--Russ

 

[pete_c]

Looking at the Ecobee3 specifications:
 
Connectivity and security Ecobee uses the latest encryption technologies to ensure that data is protected both in transmission and network access. 
 
The description of the Ecobee 3 on the website appears to have been written by a 3 year old.
 
The ecobee3 is designed to support:

• wi-fi, 915MHz, future expansion slot
• 802.11 b/g/n @ 2.4 GHZ
• WEP 64, WEP 128, WPA and WPA2 encryption methods
• DHCP (dynamic) or static IP addressing
• 168 bit SSL encryption

It appears to be using WiFi and 915Mhz transport only.  Most likely too it is connecting to a cloud application.  Thinking Zigbee uses 915Mhz. (IE looks more like a Zigbee controller than a Zigbee controlled device).
 
You can purchase a Zigbee Omnistat today and connect it to an HAI panel.  There are a few users here doing that today.  I think HAI abandoned an interface to an Z-Wave thermostat using their Z-Wave PIM a few years back but maybe I am mistaken. 
 
That said you can maybe try using it with the HAI Zigbee PIM.  Looks more like the thermostat connects to Zigbee trinkets more than anything.
 
Here use an OmniStat 2 with a serial connection to my panel.  Looking at the firmware on it; it does show all of the Zigbee pieces.  I have read here that the Omnistat 2 zigbee device kept the serial port and connectivity such that you can do both Zigbee and serial on it.  I am not in to any cloud connected thermostats today and probably never will use one.  That said it is an easy button solution and the thermostat looks nice.
 
Doing a quick read it appears that it is promoted as a thermostat combination automation controller (lots of that stuff going on now).
 
I doubt that it will connect to the HAI Zigbee PIM as a Zigbee device...but you never know unless you try...

 

[CRRC]

+1 on a serial interfaced stat to the Elk M1. I also use Apriaire 8800's (upgraded recently from 8870's which I had been using for years) and they are very reliable running direct to the Elk with an M1XSP. They remote control through any Elk-compatible tablet/phone software, same as the rest of the Elk system, as well as any external control system connected to the Elk (ie ISY, CQC, etc). The main plus to them is they aren't dependent on Wifi or any other wireless network to work...so if your wifi goes down they still operate from the Elk. Another thing to consider is the Apriaire thermostats were designed for commercial and high-end residential use and are likely built to higher standards than "consumer grade" thermostats like Nest, etc. I don't know how they compare to HAI specifically in this regard but IIRC the Omnistats come in different versions depending on HP/FA and single/multi-stage where one model of the 8800 supports pretty much everything by changing configuration options at installation time.
 
If you are budget-conscious, keep watch on eBay you can occasionally find new 8800's for $150 or less and the 8811 "Protocol Module" (which is really just a 4-wire RS485 to RS232 interface) for around $50. Only one 8811 is needed for all the thermostats in the system. If you don't need the touchscreen of the 8800, the previous-generation 8870's can be found for as cheap as $40.

 

[pete_c]

Over the years here relating to automation the best automation has always been the direct route from the controller to what is being controlled. 
 
IE:
 
controller - point A (whether that is in firmware or software or both) ===> transport ==> thermostat - point B
 
Note that this just basic common sense knowledge stuff.
 
Doing a round trip to the internet or using non redundant wireless or non redundant network (no backup, no power backup et al) works but is not the same as a piece of wire from point A to point B.
 
Here focus on the transport whatever it may be.  As soon as you remove the direct piece of wire; resilience goes down the tubes no matter what.  That is the way it is.

 

[Bzncrewjr]

I'm probably fine with going with the OmniStat 2.   It will connect to an Omni panel and seems like a quality stat.
 
The ecobee3 popped up on my inbox and the interface with Echo seemed intriguing.   And it seems to use some kind of occupancy sensor with remote sensors to "average" room temps to try and equalize temp with a priority on the occupied room as most important.   Interesting idea.
 
However, if I'm honest, we almost never adjust the thermo temp, so voice activated doesn't really provide real world functionality.  Just cool factor.
 
--Russ

 

[pete_c]

Here I used to look at the temperatures remotely and today occasionally glance at the settings but never change them on my OmniStat2.
 
The Omnistat 2 does have a sensor that turns on the back light to the thermostat when I get close to it.  You can also directly connect a temperature sensor and use the external sensor for temperature setting or an average of both of the sensors if you want.