Large remodel, wiring for lighting, lighting automation decisions

[SpuTTer]

We have a 2400 square foot tri level house that we are doing a huge remodel on.

It includes a 2 story "house" which are levels 1 and 3, and off to the side, there is a connected 2nd level which is not being remodeled.

Level 1 and 3, the walls are wide open. I have a 2'x3' cabinet at level 3 where I was looking to home run all the low voltage stuff. That seems pretty straight forward.

I also have a detached barn, and a garage that I would like to automate if possible.

I have my electrical guy out right now, and I'm trying to figure out all of the high voltage stuff. I mentioned doing some lighting automation now, since we have the walls open. I thought all I had to do was run a cat5 to each switch, but he let me know that I need to home run all of the high voltage up to the closet as well, which made sense to me.

This leads me to my dillema, I can probably hardwire most of the level 2 stuff and home run it back to the closet, and then most of the system would be up there and could be controlled.

I want to do most of the controller hardware and software myself if possible because I'm on a tight budget (I didnt account for lighting automation in my budget).

Basically, I have the walls open now, and Im very practical and value concious. I want to do the right thing now if it will save time and money later.

I'm looking for advice on if the hard wired system makes sense. When I was researching with OnQ stuff, it seemed like it wouldnt be all that expensive for the controller ($250 or sometihng I believe) and then I'd just need switches which appear to run about $100.

Then I heard good things about Lutron but then I heard a price of something like $2000 for just the controller, and I'm a little bit dazed. Also, it seems like I have to go through a dealer so Im not sure how much I can do myself with my electrician.

Then there is the issue with integrating the existing 2nd floor, which just contains a master bedroom / bathroom, and the home office.

I have heard hard wired is best, and I was looking to do that, but now I'm thinking that perhaps a different solution would be more cost effective and more modular. It would seem that I'd have to home run every light, etc, to the closet.

I would prefer to have the system working hard wired right now, and being able to add lighting control as needed, because honestly, automated lighting control for me right now is a nice to have and not a requirement, but I dont want to sabatage any future plans of doing it.

I also just thought or something. What would you think about (for future if I wanted) having the electrical guy home run the romex, from the switches, to the home run location, and then back out to the light. Then I could have cat5 ready at each switch, but I could use standard switches for now. This would just cost me more in romex now, and I could add a controller later maybe.

May just be easier to go with a solid RF/upb/whatever solution, but something to think about

Also I am concerned about the garage/barn if I do a hardwired option.

I am looking at doing home automation as a whole at some point. I want to home run everything and control with something like an ELK M1 and possibly CQC, etc.

Right now, I am trying to focus on the wiring because I only have about 3 weeks left to wire before the drywall goes up.

Thank you.



Update:

Added floor plans to my AVS post, cant link dynamic images here so I cant show, but if you want to see a floor plan, please go here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....&highlight=

 

[Steve]

Welcome to CocoonTech!

If you've read my other posts you know what I'm going to say In this situation I think a hybrid solution would be best. Sounds like you can home run the HV but its not ideal. I would just make sure there is a neutral in each box and then I would run a Cat5 to each switch box that you could and use ALC/OnQ in those locations. Then, for places like the garage or second floor where you maybe can't run a Cat5, I would use UPB. UPB and ALC will work fine together. Doing it this way can can do like you said, just run the Cat5's and you can swap out the switches with ALC or UPB as time and money permit.

 

[amirm]

That would be my suggestion too. He would need an automation controller for the UPB though (ELK would do).

BTW, at CEDIA, the ONQ people were completely disowning ALC and sending people to Vantage instead. As a result, I am going with Centralite instead. Interestingly enough though, worthington still sells ALC and I assumes others do too.

 

[Steve]

BTW, at CEDIA, the ONQ people were completely disowning ALC and sending people to Vantage instead. As a result, I am going with Centralite instead. Interestingly enough though, worthington still sells ALC and I assumes others do too.

Yea, If I were to do ALC, it would most likely only be from Tony at SetNet.

 

[SpuTTer]

OK. I think if I only need to run cat5 to the switches, then it wouldnt be too much work to run the cat5 to the existing middle floor, and I can run cat5 to the garage and barn easily enough. This would allow for a whole system of OnQ/ALC and worst case I could go with UPB or whatever is next in line, or an RF solution.

Are OnQ/ALC a dying solution or are they still going strong?

Also, is ALC a generic term for what OnQ gives you? If so, are their more cost effective options that provide the same function?

Update: Added floor plan to first post.

 

[sic0048]

Check out Tony's recent post about On-Q dropping ALC - he says it isn't happening, and knowing those guys I totally trust them.

That being said, you do not need to homerun all the HV lines back to the closet to use the ALC system. You do for many of the other hardwired system, but as noted, those are much more expensive. Also, because the ALC switches just need a neutral wire and the cat5e wire, they can easily be retrofitted in your middle level when/if you decide to tackle that.

You only mentioned lighting system questions, but I hope you are taking this unique chance to wire those two levels for everything. This means running lots of cat5e wire for network, phone, serial control (to stuff like TVs, drapes, etc) and camera locations, some sort of precision coaxial cable (not regular coaxial cable) for audio and video signals (component, digital/stereo audio, etc), regular coaxial cable for cable/sat/OTA broadcasts, alarm wiring (contacts, keypads, glass breaks, smoke detectors, motion detectors, etc), and other wire for potential touch screen locations, etc.

None of this needs to be hooked up or used right now, but there will be no easier time than now to run it. So try to run it now if you can. It should amount to about $500 in wiring (the about 1/2 of that being the precision coaxial cable).

 

[SpuTTer]

Yes! I am definitely tackling all the wiring right now. I wasnt sure if I should post that here or not. I did a post on AVS and it sounds like on the lighting side, I am good. Now I need to figure out all my low voltage stuff!!

I am definitly planning for all the good stuff.

Here Im trying to figure out if I should do central or distributed AV:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....=1#post14739193

and here Im asking for advice on speaker locations:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....81#post14739181


I dont think I have any questions on the security side but I have all the cable and I will be running that.

I'm not sure about precision coaxial cable, but I have a 1000' spool of RG6 quad shield solid copper core on it's way. I think I read a previous post and someone was using that term and perhaps talkling about more of a mini coax?

I want to wire for intercom/door control via my phone system and something like the Door Fon system.

I want CCTV cameras and I'm not sure if I'll need (RG6 or CAT5) + 18/2 for that, so I may run both.

I'm planning on running RG6 + CAT5 to each TV location.

Cat 5 all over the place for most things.

22/4 for the security stuff + some 18/2 that I need to pickup still.

Electrician is handling smoke alarms and carbon mono detectors.

Right now my main concern is what to run and where to run it. I have a pretty good grasp, but as you see in my AVS thread, Im not sure if I should be doing everything centralized or distributed.

Check out Tony's recent post about On-Q dropping ALC - he says it isn't happening, and knowing those guys I totally trust them.

That being said, you do not need to homerun all the HV lines back to the closet to use the ALC system. You do for many of the other hardwired system, but as noted, those are much more expensive. Also, because the ALC switches just need a neutral wire and the cat5e wire, they can easily be retrofitted in your middle level when/if you decide to tackle that.

You only mentioned lighting system questions, but I hope you are taking this unique chance to wire those two levels for everything. This means running lots of cat5e wire for network, phone, serial control (to stuff like TVs, drapes, etc) and camera locations, some sort of precision coaxial cable (not regular coaxial cable) for audio and video signals (component, digital/stereo audio, etc), regular coaxial cable for cable/sat/OTA broadcasts, alarm wiring (contacts, keypads, glass breaks, smoke detectors, motion detectors, etc), and other wire for potential touch screen locations, etc.

None of this needs to be hooked up or used right now, but there will be no easier time than now to run it. So try to run it now if you can. It should amount to about $500 in wiring (the about 1/2 of that being the precision coaxial cable).

 

[dutchyn]

None of this needs to be hooked up or used right now, but there will be no easier time than now to run it. So try to run it now if you can. It should amount to about $500 in wiring (the about 1/2 of that being the precision coaxial cable).

I need to talk to your installer. My quotations are much higher than that, about $3000 to pull in 2*cat5 and 2*coax to 13 locations, a bunch of 22/4 for sensors, and a 20 miscellaneous cables for intercom, satv, ...

Chris D.

 

[SpuTTer]

OK, I moved my other post from AVS over to here. This is in regards to the best solution for the TV/Video side of the equation.

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=11206

Sounds like we got lighting figured out!

You only mentioned lighting system questions, but I hope you are taking this unique chance to wire those two levels for everything. This means running lots of cat5e wire for network, phone, serial control (to stuff like TVs, drapes, etc) and camera locations, some sort of precision coaxial cable (not regular coaxial cable) for audio and video signals (component, digital/stereo audio, etc), regular coaxial cable for cable/sat/OTA broadcasts, alarm wiring (contacts, keypads, glass breaks, smoke detectors, motion detectors, etc), and other wire for potential touch screen locations, etc.

None of this needs to be hooked up or used right now, but there will be no easier time than now to run it. So try to run it now if you can. It should amount to about $500 in wiring (the about 1/2 of that being the precision coaxial cable).

 

[SpuTTer]

He's quoting an approx cable price for the cables themselves, not installed, as far as I can tell. I am trying to DIY for most everything, and I can drill holes and run cables easily right now in 2 of my 3 floors.

None of this needs to be hooked up or used right now, but there will be no easier time than now to run it. So try to run it now if you can. It should amount to about $500 in wiring (the about 1/2 of that being the precision coaxial cable).

I need to talk to your installer. My quotations are much higher than that, about $3000 to pull in 2*cat5 and 2*coax to 13 locations, a bunch of 22/4 for sensors, and a 20 miscellaneous cables for intercom, satv, ...

Chris D.

 

[felixrosbergen]

I'll throw my solution in the mix.

I had my electrical walkthrough with the builder of my home (2800sqf) today and the plan is:

- Wire house as normal for all switches and electrical outlets (3 way, 4 way, etc)
- On ground floor (difficult to access later) make the High Voltage boxes at the light switches in select locations 1 extra gang wider and use a box that has a HV/LV divider. Use a box that allows connection of flexible conduit without loosing UL listing rating. Using this i ran put the cat5 in later and the extra gang allow space for scene switches.
- On 2nd floor (good access from attic) only make location where you want scene switch 1 gang larger. Most other locations i can drop the cat5 into the wall later.

For audio/video/phone/date etc i am having them put in 2 Low voltage mudrings per room with 3/4" conduit up to attic or down to basement. This allows me to put in whatever cable i want later.

There are 2 2" conduits from basement to the attic, 1 for future electrical circuit (solar panels or finishing of bonus rooms) the other for LV stuff.

They are charing me $65 to use the special box with HV/LV divider which i one gang extra and they put the 3/4" conduit on for this. For the LV mudrings they charge the same $65.

THey are giving me a about a $1000 credit since they wont be putting in the original 5 cat5 and 5coax runs allowed for in the contract.

ChisDDutchyn: sic0048 is probably referring to the cos of the wiring, i assume you're talking about having somebody else supply and install the wire right?

I'm getting quoted about $2200 for pre-wire of 6 zones of home audio (16/4 speaker wire + cat5) and the entire ground floor 22/4 (maybe 7 windows and 3 doors and 3 keypad locations). I think thats a bit high and will be doing some more negotiating.

I hope this provides some perspective and comparison.

 

[SpuTTer]

Mavric. Thanks for your history. I should definitely consider some of the larger boxes instead of the singles, good call! Better to do that now than later.

 

[SnyperBob]

You only mentioned lighting system questions, but I hope you are taking this unique chance to wire those two levels for everything. This means running lots of cat5e wire for network, phone, serial control (to stuff like TVs, drapes, etc) and camera locations, some sort of precision coaxial cable (not regular coaxial cable) for audio and video signals (component, digital/stereo audio, etc), regular coaxial cable for cable/sat/OTA broadcasts, alarm wiring (contacts, keypads, glass breaks, smoke detectors, motion detectors, etc), and other wire for potential touch screen locations, etc.

None of this needs to be hooked up or used right now, but there will be no easier time than now to run it. So try to run it now if you can. It should amount to about $500 in wiring (the about 1/2 of that being the precision coaxial cable).

I have a new construction tri level with a basement as well (quad level?). I ran all my low voltage myself and apparently saved about $3000 doing so.

Currently I just have everything homerun to my wiring closet in the basement. I wired for internet, phone, extra cat5 for a rainy day, RG6 quad shield X 3 to each location. I prewired for security as well (glass break, motion, windows/doors), in hopes to get an Elk panel soon. I have a smoke detector in the wiring closet I can tap into when I'm ready. I also wired ceiling speakers into all the bedrooms. I went the cheap route and just put volume knobs in the walls and home run all the speakers. I leave a receiver running in the wiring closet and each bedroom can just adjust volume or turn off locally. I also ran RCA wires to each room, so I can have a cheap input in each room that feeds into the receive in the basement.

I went the cheap route with my setup. This is just a first house and I didn't want to spend a ton on hardware and whatnot. I have all the wires in, now I just need to start organizing my wiring closet

I am using cheap ds10a's now to test out my security contacts on the windows and doors.

With that major remodel, it sounds like you're in that house for the long haul. I would recommend not cutting any corners. You don't want to kick yourself once you're 'done' because you didn't run an extra wire or two when you had the chance.

I would highly recommend you wire for surround sound if you haven't already thought about it. you may want to run some cat5 out your lower level overhangs for future temp sensors (1 wire stuff, elk, etc).

 

[Ranger Digital]

Snyp, you are running three RG6 for video to each location. That will, of course, carry your video signal, what are you running for your audio to each TV location?? Two cat5's are good to run there as well, one for IR and one for phone (many cable/tv companies offer caller ID to tv's). Just dont forget about your audio along with your video. Some run the audio thru their whole house audio but its always nice to have audio for just the tv.

 

[SpuTTer]

Snypez, I plan to use an elk and run my own security as well, any tips on that front would be appreciated. I have a 1000' spool of 22/4 that I'm going to be wiring to all the doors/windows and a couple locations where a motion sensor would make sense.

I was considering whole house audio, but also wanted to do it kind of on the cheap right now, do you have a link to the volume knobs you are referring to? That would be a good solution for me now, and I'd also run cat5 to that knob box, so I could switch it out for something "cool" in the future.

I am running for video/HT too, but I have a different thread for that.

I think I'll be getting an ELK M1 Ez8 pretty soon after the remodel is done to kick in the security sensors, before that I'll have to test them with a voltmeter and I'm running 22/4 I'll have a backup set of wires on a lot of the sensors if someone goes wrong.