Lighting: Insteon / RadioRA2

[Miketemp]

I have experience with Insteon, having implemented it shortly after if came out many years ago in a former home. I had dealt with the issues with the earlier switches, but it had seemed to get better with later batches and Smarthome had replaced the bad ones. I have a box of controlled switches and dimmers and plug in modules, and an ISY controller, aside from previous experience using this and setting this up with an Elk. It had seemed to me that reliability was better in the later units. I also learned that extended warranties were a good investment.
 
I'm in a new home and was thinking of going the Insteon route again, but saw references to RadioRA2 being rock solid and somewhat DIY friendly (I had anticipated doing it myself originally). I already see cases where I would like to link switches to clean up how the switches are laid out (via linking and keypads using the Insteon analogy). This would essentiall abandon some of my existing hardware and experience but would ensure this was professional grade (albeit at a premium).
 
While this question may border on a religious one in some cases, is RadioRA2 something that should be given special attention and is it worth the premium? I would probably build this out over time. Are there any special advantages I would get with this approach? I did see the shade control which seemed interesting but it seems I could do this separate from lighting control if I wished as well (not sure if/what I would do there, but it is an area of interest).
 
I have not done the specific math but I would likely have about 50 loads (for lighting).
 
I am not quite clear how DIY friendly these are as well, although I did see some on Amazon and it looked like these may be dealer items on AutomatedOutlet  (for example) but I have not reached out to them either. It sounded like I'd need to get a copy of the software as well.

Thanks.
 
 
 
 
 

 

[FlyingDiver]

I'd like to ask for comments on fit and finish of the switches and keypads for the two systems as well.  The old X-10 switches I had felt really junky.  I expect the Lutron switches have a high quality, "solid" feel to them.  What about the Insteon ones?

 

[tmbrown97]

RadioRa2 is a very professional looking system that people say is absolutely flawless when it comes to reliability.  I know they have some of the most professional looking and feeling switches, and even if you don't go 100% RadioRa2 you can still use Maestro dumb switches for the others and keep that 100% consistent look which I like.  It's also nice that the price of the keypads includes the cost of laser engraving.  Additional things I like - the Pico remote which is also compatible with the homelink transmitters in your car (or can be used around the house just about anywhere); their temperature controller looks great, and the stick-on occupancy sensors definitely appeal to me.  Of course RadioRa2 is probably 3-4x the cost of Insteon.
 
Getting the software is easy enough - for the Essentials software which lets you use a single main repeater and up to 100 total devices, you can sign up on their website and go through the blast training.  It doesn't take that long if you focus on it for a day or two.  The Inclusive software is a bit harder - and I doubt any dealer will "hook you up" because the way you go from essentials to inclusive is to install Essentials, then copy an installation ID to their website where you'll get a unique unlock code that coverts it.
 
Beyond that it's a personal choice - but IMO it's a significantly more professional option - something that fits in the million dollar homes; whereas Insteon still feel like the next generation of X10 to me - yet it's extremely flexible and DIY friendly which is a big plus.
 
The biggest issue I've come across with RadioRa2 so far is that it doesn't seem *as* flexible.  For instance, I have some UPB switches where the load wired to the switch and what the switch paddle does are totally decoupled - to overcome bad wiring.  With Lutron, that's really not possible.  A switch controls what it's wired to, and it can be controlled by the network.  The other thing was that there are a handful of specific models depending on exactly what you want to do and the type of light load; with my Simply Automated UPB there's 2 - scenes/multifunction and regular rockers - and between those two I can do anything with the exception of a very high wattage load, for which I'd need a contactor or specialty switch that may not match the rest.

 

[dgage]

I have RadioRa2 and love it...for its reliability, for the elegance of product selection. Is it perfect? No. But I personally think it is the best DIY based lighting system available.

Work2Play gave great info as usual. I use the hybrid keypads, dimmers, switches, Pico remotes, SeeTemp thermostat systems, occupancy sensors, etc and it has always been rock solid. I also use the Maestro switches for loads I don't plan to automate like a closet and it is mechanically the same as an automated switch so there is 100% consistency.

The RadioRa2 software is fairly limited in its automation capabilities with it basically having time clock and motion-based automation capabilities. So you will really need some automation hardware or software to go along with it, I use CQC but there are many options.

RadioRa2 is definitely a premium DIY system with a premium price. The only other DIY type system I'd recommend for consideration is UPB as it can usually be made to be very reliable. Maybe Insteon as I hear they are more reliable now but I haven't read much about them recently. However, the UPB offerings are definitely a step down in terms of elegant options, at least in my opinion.

 

[BLH]

I have seen quality issues reported with the Insteon 2413 PLMs. Failing in a little over two years. Mine got to two years three months.
The Extended Warranties are no longer offered.
Universal Devices is developing their own model PLM with beefed up power supplies and parts that where weak in the 2413 PLMs.
 
If you have an ISY99i. Due to programming space in it. The firmware can't be updated to support the latest Insteon Devices. There still maybe a update offer for an ISY994i.

 

[pete_c]

Years ago over a conversation with an exclusive dealer of combo automation/security panels here in the Midwest the conversation went to automation lighting the large multimillion dollar homes that were serviced by his company.

Most of his clients wanted automated lighting which just worked.  That said the choices back then only related to using the legacy means of using low voltage wiring to the "controller".  For whatever reasons many of the clients chose not to do the spend on the automated lighting in existing homes.  Many of the homes were "tiny" little mansions over 10K of SF living space built over 70 years ago
 
Mostly though his clients were interested in something esthetically pleasing to the eye on the wall that resembled their cell phones rather than the simple illuminated key pad consoles to the combination security / automation panels even if the costs were higher than a then functional automated lighting system. (even if they didn't work 100% of the time).
 
Personally here ( I do my own lighting automation) the transition for the "in wall" light switch starting in the late 70's (with X-10) shifted over to Insteon in the 2000's (it was a natural progression which worked for me). 
 
Ideally because I could still control my lighting with my X10 PIMs combination Insteon PIMs. 
 
What a great idea for those that started to automate their lighting with X10 years before. 
 
I do recall "complaining" to HAI at one EHExpo years ago as to why they were not including Insteon control in their combination alarm/security panels.  I never did get a response to my complaints other than that is the way it will be.  Well it was their company and their choice as to what they wanted to do anyways. 
 
At another EHExpo I recall similiar complaining to whomever at the Insteon booth at EHExpo about the "spend" on what I considered a great transition to Insteon and then being "jilted" by them and not wanting again to traverse their "pangs" of technology at my expense.
 
I continued to control my Insteon combo switches with X10 via the HAI OPII panel and Insteon via the Homeseer automation software.
 
Yup; and the Insteon switches started to fail and I replaced them as they failed.  I didn't want to change technologies for my in wall switches (hate that stuff).
 
None the less I started then with a very slow migration over to UPB.  Really did procrastinate on the endeavor doing mostly just the 2nd floor of my home in UPB while leaving the rest of the home at Insteon.  Personally the HAI OPII panel X10 control of the Insteon switches worked fine for me.
 
The second newer set of Insteon switches did start to fail every so slowly. 
 
Mostly I didn't pay attention much as they were automated and I let the automation do its thing (like the outdoor lighting switches).
 
Then one day I was "thunderstruck" (literally but not by lightning"); I lost the rest of the Insteon but none of the UPB switches.  Maybe it was just sort of a "fate" thing to see the Insteon switched damaged to being disfunctional by some surge of power.
 
Over a period of a month or two (It was a real PITA) transitioned the rest of the Insteon to newer UPB switches (many dual load and multi paddle switches). 
 
The UPB switches (went to a variety here - PCS, SA and HAI) are doing fine and really my personal DIY lighting in wall switch automation curmudgeonous doesn't want to fix something that isn't broken these days.  Very very slowly I am though playing with LED lighting automation (its a crawl; baby steps for me).

 

[dgage]

Good story Pete, although I'm sure it wasn't fun replacing al of those light switches. So I guess that helps me in terms of recommending lighting. It's either UPB or RadioRa2. I've read about too many issues with Zwave "losing" all devices and having to re-enroll an entire house full of switches. Zwave also has the issue of not enough reliability until you reach about 20 switches and diminishing reliability when over ~ 60 switches.

Pros and cons of the two lighting choices based on MY understanding/research/reading.

RadioRa2
* PROS - bullet proof reliability, elegant devices, options to integrate into decor (color options), good selection of device types
* CONS - need basic training to get access to software, more expensive, closed system, limit of 100 devices without extra training for 200 devices (dealer type training)

UPB
* PROS - reliable, several device manufacturers, switch double-tap capability
* CONS - devices not as nice as RadioRa2, not much innovation or new products in UPB space over last few years, may need electrician for UPB bridge/repeater to send signals to both legs of electrical panel

 

[FlyingDiver]

Any thoughts on the "feel" of the switches, comparing the Lutron Maestro/RRA2 switches and Keypads to the Insteon or UPB ones?  Toggle action, solidity, etc?

 

[pete_c]

although I'm sure it wasn't fun replacing all of those light switches.

 
It was no fun and a real PITA and low on the WAF.  I did do the do very slowly, a room or a couple of switches at a time.  The low WAF stuff was leaving switches in a pulled out (hands off) state from the electrical box for any amount of time.
 
Over the years in my DIY automation efforts I have made my electrical panel automation friendly.  
 
Not sure if it helped rather than being just an organizational effort of sorts.
 
* - Original panel is 200 AMPs (I have read a push towards a 400 AMP residential panel)
* - installation of surge protection (went deluxe with a surge protection NC/NO switch to the HAI OPII panel)
* - breaking down of circuits getting some granularity plus documenting each breaker. (the picture/documentation is taped to the door).
* - while in the panel endeavor adding a UPB repeater
* - Over the years I did install new electrical boxes next to the fuse panel on separate breakers for power line PIMs only.
* - having metal conduit allow me to pull more wires for more circuits.  IE: NM-B  (non metallic flexible) cable use to create a new electrical circuit can be a real PITA.
 
Any means of lighting automation today which utilizes the wall switch with an HV electrical load will require more than basic electrical knowledge.  The knowledge base does go beyond the basics and into the intelligence pieces of the switches; which then becomes a sub specialty of an electrical automation obi wan or specialized training.  The DIY pieces should always include not just the switch HV stuff but also the fuse panel familiarity.  If you are not comfortable working with electrical stuff then hiring an electrician who is and that is familiar with automation switches.  I do have for play wireless light switches that sort of look like regular light switches.  That said the automation HV load is somewhere down the line and it does exist.
 
The transition here relating to light switches in general went from the hard analog toggle to the soft analog toggle to soft Decora mounting style switch.   Every light switch is the same; even the non automated ones look like the automated ones.  Never paid as much attention to the "feel" of the toggle versus the uniformity of the switch; whether it was automated or not.  The UPB paddle toggle pushes are programmed to the switch here; one quickie touch turns on 5 lamps in one room all synced to 30% brightness; two touches of the paddle make all of the lights go to 100%.  I did program many UPB switches in the home to do this today.
 
Well  and also and going from the "ivory" colored switch/cover of yesteryear to the "white" switch/cover of today.  I did do stuff like put a switch in the hallway with an on an off indication that the attic lights are on or off shifting from the switch in the attic.

 

[tmbrown97]

To be honest, in terms of basic operation, I actually prefer the way my UPB switches work over RadioRa2 - with the RadioRa2 stuff, there's a separate little toggle on the side that can be used to set the dim level - then when you turn the lights on again they'll go to the last light level which may be very low - you have to use the little toggle to get them bright again.  In a large home with lots of switches it can be hard to tell which switch does what because even when you hit the switch - you wonder why nothing happened? Is it an outside light, specialty light, or is the dimmer just dimmed off?  With my UPB switches they always go to 80% on a single tap; double tap's do other things - like turn to 100% or turn on several lights.  Also turning off - in many rooms a single tap on any switch turns just that light off, but a double tap will turn off everything in the room.  This is a place where even UPB can trump RadioRa2 in terms of pure flexibility.  This should also go into the "Pros" column from dgage's list.   I'll also add that a few years ago I had never been in a panel so I had someone help me install my first phase coupler (despite working on branch circuits plenty of times) - but since then I'm comfortable with anything in there because I now understand how it all works.  It didn't take much to learn what all is going on inside there.
 
So I'll still give RadioRa2 the more polished look - especially with the laser etched keypads, and they way it can be a very capable standalone system that integrates with any security system and with their lighting and gate/garage controllers without needing any fancy automation systems - but they do lose some points in pure flexibility of what the buttons and switches can do.  Then I guess they get other points back in that they can do drapes too and it's all part of the same master controller which also has the scheduling built in and a tie in for the security system - so not apples to apples.
 
I'll also add that in 6 years I've had one switch fail - and it was a first generation of the 2240 dual-load controller.  Local control still works, but there's no sign of it on the network anymore.

 

[dgage]

Thanks for the reminder of the UPB double-tap...that is definitely something I wish RadioRa2 had. I updated my Pros/Cons list to reflect that nice capability,

My RadioRa2 dimmers go back to my default setting and I just tested it. I'm not sure if it's because I set the default value in the software but it definitely goes back to the setting I specified in the software.

Regarding switch feeling, I'd say that is subjective. RadioRa2 looks high-quality and feels the same. Also remember that the switches come in a myriad of colors to more easily fit into a decor as opposed to just a white or almond choice. And of course, RadioRa2 would be at home in a million dollar house so maybe that says something right there. I am not commenting on the UPB switches as I've never used one.

 

[az1324]

I would say the glossy white ra2 dimmers are just as plasticky as everything else.

 

[tmbrown97]

IMO they both FEEL great - but no doubt RadioRa2 LOOKS better - especially better than Simply Automated which I otherwise love.  They do unfortunately have a cheap appearance to them, at least on their scene switches.

 

[rsw686]

I have UPB switches and have been looking into replacing them with RadioRA 2. Overall my UPB switches have been reliable. However once or twice a year I've had a missed command where a light was left on. I have the downstairs lights turn off when armed to night mode. I've hit a switch upstairs around the same time the system finished arming, which caused a missed command downstairs.
 
I've actually built out a config in the RadioRA 2 software to see the functionality. I event passed the online training for RadioRA 2 Essentials last year. However I haven't been able to bring myself to pay 40% more for the RadioRA 2 switches over UPB. Although with the recently released RadioRA 2 CL dimmer this brings the price difference down significantly. I have been waiting for some reviews to see how well they actually work with LED bulbs as the dimmers don't have a neutral wire.

 

[lleo]

...with the RadioRa2 stuff, there's a separate little toggle on the side that can be used to set the dim level - then when you turn the lights on again they'll go to the last light level which may be very low - you have to use the little toggle to get them bright again.  In a large home with lots of switches it can be hard to tell which switch does what because even when you hit the switch - you wonder why nothing happened?...

 
In RA2 you can program the default on level for each and every dimmer separately, i.e. to turn on to a set level, regardless to what was previously dimmed to. There is a separate setting to allow the change of the preset dimming level without programming, e.g. set new dimmer level and long-press button for saving it. Also with double tap every dimmer will turn on at max level. Pressing on the raise toggle from off-state will turn the load on at the lowest level, repeated pressing will continue to raise the dimming level to desired level, very useful at night.