New construction...wired in or wireless... and occupancy sensors

[picta]

What size house are you planning to build? We have Centralite Elegance with 96 loads and 8 fans, which is connected to HAI OmniPro panel for sensors and HVAC control. HAI (now Leviton) has recently introduced their own hard-wired lighting system, called OmniBus. It is more modular, as you can purchase individual load control, while Elegance comes in 24 load panels. You can learn a lot about these systems from manufacture's websites. Centralite site has a document called "electrician's guide" that walks you through the installation process, and you can download a free software to see how easy it is to program the system. The site may look "stale", but once you get the product, you can register for a lot more recent information and they have a great tech support.
 
Most of my sensors are connected to HAI panel, I use 2 sets of sensors: one for security and the other for automation. You want your security sensors to be more robust, while for automation they have to be more sensitive. A few occupancy sensors and a lot of inexpensive motion sensors, plus interior door senors help make lighting in the house almost completely automated, so the switches are there just as a back-up. For temperature and humidity we have HAI sensors as well as HAI omni2 thermostats. For light sensing I use a few different approaches: photocells, a LabPro serial lux meter and HAI programming based on sunset/sunrise. As for the brands, we mostly use SensorSwitch for occupancy, DSC for motion/smokes, GRI for doors/windows and a few special purpose here and there.
 
A few words on fan control. It is notoriously difficult to find automated fan controller, centralite offers precision control of variable speed motors. We use these to control not only the ceiling fans, but also fantech bathroom fans, fireplace blower, kitchen hood and automation closet fan. Something to think about when you plan your HV runs.
 
Also a good thing would be to pre-wire for shade/drape control. We use somfy motors that are easy to integrate with HAI panel, and a lot of our lighting scenes include shade control as well.

 

[pete_c]

Drewscm,
 
Just a quickie synopsis relating to my setup. 
 
1 - Base lighting control is using UPB.  All gang boxes/switches today controlling lighting is using UPB. That said over the years I went (and still have in place) from X-10, Insteon to UPB.  I have added Z-Wave devices (wireless) to the mix and getting ready to add Zigbee wireless devices to the mentioned mix.
2 - Base audio uses wires (never did utilize wireless anything for media).  Initially wired every room in the home for two speakers (including hallways) and a gang box for control.  Today it is 12 zones of audio.  6 zones have subzones of audio. (separate MM centers).  Two subzone MM rooms have more speakers (5.1 and 7.1).
3 - Video is inhouse and internet.  OTA, Satellite and Cable.  Wife utilizes satellite PVR.  Personally playing with MythTV.  The MythTV DVR box has OTA, Cable and Satellite via multiple tuners.  I have installed XBMC boxes everywhere and they talk to the MythTV box.  In house video is analog and digital these days using this methodology.  (IE: via IP and channels 3/4 analog).  I don't really watch TV though; and just playing with this stuff.
4 - Environmental (temperature sensing and a bit more) uses 1-wire.  It would be cost prohibitive to replace all of the sensors in place (over 50 and less than 100).  I have two weather stations in place.  One is a 1-wire and one is a Davis Vantage Vue (wireless).  I also have multiple HAI temperature and temperature / humidity sensors hooked up to the Leviton/HAI Panel (more expensive though than 1-wire.
5 - Security (HAI/Leviton OPII panel) - it is all wired currently.  I did purchase the two types of wireless interfaces.  In one home. 
In home #2 I do have a wireless interface connected to the HAI/Leviton OPII panel but not currently utilized as that home also is wired for security. Don't really need it but did connect small remote devices for the on and off of lighting; which works fine.
6 - Software (since 1998) has been Homeseer (I, II, III).  Always utilized as an add to automation panel stuff; also doing things today that are a bit different from what is happening with the Leviton HAI OPII panel.  Weather maps from NOAA satellites instead of the internet.  Playing with the first Linux version of HS3; tiny thing running on a beagle board.
7 - Consoles/Touchscreens are Leviton/HAI Omnitouch 5.7's, Omnitouch 5.7e's, Omnitouch Pro software on wintel touchscreens, HS Touch touch designer screens (mostly utilize wintel plus ce, and Android and optionally iOS).

 

[Drewscm]

Thanks for the replies
 
Like I said I'm looking to wire as much as possible as this is a new construction and solid wire works without interference, I know some things will need to be wireless but I want to stay wired. 
 
 
 
I've been trying to read up on the Omni Pro II, Lutron Homeworks, Elk and Centralite. But of course I am swamped at work these days. Is centralite a closed system software or open?
 
What kind of price tag does Centralite carry? 
 
Picta, I like the sensorswitch sensors, come to find out an electric supply company carries them only a few miles away from my work, so I am going to swing in to see what kind of pricing they have. I prefer to buy items online, usually less markup.
 
Anyone else know of some good sensors to look into, both automation and security. 
 
 
I am looking to use a program like Open Remote or Open Source Automation to integrate everything and use androids or ipad minis to control. 

 

[picta]

Centralite's software is open, and you can download it free from the website. You can write your own driver to interface with it, or if you get OmniPro, it has a built-in integration with centralite. ASIhome.com and automatedoutlet.com carry the hardware, you may want to call them to inquire about current pricing as this is a dealer oriented product.

 

[uscpsycho]

This is a popular belief, but it is not accurate. The hard wired lighting systems can be less expensive if you can semi-DIY  the install (just like any other system). But this requires knowledge of how to do it right, and that can be intimidating. We had installed a hard-wired system in our house after throwing out thousands of dollars worth of "retrofit" DIY equipment, previously we had 3 full installs based on X10, z-wave and Insteon and just got fed up with all the problems and constant device failures. So when we had a chance to do it all in the new construction, we took the risk of the unknown and designed the system ourselves, and never looked back. The system has been operational for over 5 years now, it is extremely flexible and reliable, no comparison to the days of wireless systems when constant troubleshooting was required. We still have a small z-wave network to support locks and a few other devices, and that system has problems regularly. It would also cost me twice to replicate the system with UPB and 4+ times with Lutron devices (the 2 retrofit systems that at least can be close in reliability comparison), and many features I would not be able to replicate at all. It will cost less per device in a larger install, for small installs of less than 48 devices the hard-wired system is not the cheapest alternative. Also, the labor of running high voltage wire is less expensive due to the home run, you can design the system to minimize the run length by installing the panels in separate location. We have 2 locations that are roughly a half of the house length apart, they are connected together by a LV wire. The HV wiring is mostly a straight line in the attic between the fixture and the panel, no romex wire in the walls for switches, as those are cat5 based, and we run them ourselves as part of the rest of LV wiring. Most house outlets are wired in traditional way, but we also have a few dedicated controlled ones. So it can be done, and done without breaking the bank, but most likely by those who already had home automation experience and were wishing to move up the quality ladder, just like we did. But for a newcomer to home automation, the retrofit technologies would be a safer bet, because they can fall back on standard switches in case things do not work out.

 
 

What size house are you planning to build? We have Centralite Elegance with 96 loads and 8 fans, which is connected to HAI OmniPro panel for sensors and HVAC control. HAI (now Leviton) has recently introduced their own hard-wired lighting system, called OmniBus. It is more modular, as you can purchase individual load control, while Elegance comes in 24 load panels. You can learn a lot about these systems from manufacture's websites. Centralite site has a document called "electrician's guide" that walks you through the installation process, and you can download a free software to see how easy it is to program the system. The site may look "stale", but once you get the product, you can register for a lot more recent information and they have a great tech support.
 
Most of my sensors are connected to HAI panel, I use 2 sets of sensors: one for security and the other for automation. You want your security sensors to be more robust, while for automation they have to be more sensitive. A few occupancy sensors and a lot of inexpensive motion sensors, plus interior door senors help make lighting in the house almost completely automated, so the switches are there just as a back-up. For temperature and humidity we have HAI sensors as well as HAI omni2 thermostats. For light sensing I use a few different approaches: photocells, a LabPro serial lux meter and HAI programming based on sunset/sunrise. As for the brands, we mostly use SensorSwitch for occupancy, DSC for motion/smokes, GRI for doors/windows and a few special purpose here and there.
 
A few words on fan control. It is notoriously difficult to find automated fan controller, centralite offers precision control of variable speed motors. We use these to control not only the ceiling fans, but also fantech bathroom fans, fireplace blower, kitchen hood and automation closet fan. Something to think about when you plan your HV runs.
 
Also a good thing would be to pre-wire for shade/drape control. We use somfy motors that are easy to integrate with HAI panel, and a lot of our lighting scenes include shade control as well.

 
Sorry for bumping an ancient thread but this information was eye opening and it was easier to continue the conversation that start from scratch.
 
I'm doing a complete remodel and my plan was to go with Lutron for lighting. According to everyone I've talked so far, when lighting came up Lutron RadioRa 2 was suggested as the lighting system to go with. Nobody told me that if I have the opportunity to hardwire my lighting that it's cheaper and superior.
 
Centralite Elegance and Leviton Omnibus were mentioned above but that was nearly two years ago. Anything new since then that I should know about? Or have updates to either system made it a clear choice over the other? Will either one of these work with Elk M1 or RTI?

 

[picta]

There are new hard-wired systems like Loxone, but when it comes to basics of HA it's better to install an older system with proven track record, unless you have an appetite for experimenting with new technology. The Elegance system I mentioned 2 years ago is still working perfectly. The HAI omnibus got released less than a year ago for US market, but I bet it is a solid system. Lutron has a hard-wired system also, called Homeworks.
 
There are many threads on this board which discuss the hard-wired vs wireless. Most people are very intimidated by not the hard wired per se, but the "non-traditional" home run requirement. If you plan correctly, you can minimize the wire run in such system as most loads will require a straight line connection, no stud drilling and no crossing of LV wires. And having all wire terminating in one place will give you advantages beyond the original goal of lighting. For example, you can easily monitor power usage on any load with multi-channel energy meter. You may decide later that you wish a few lights to be powered directly from your solar panel, while leaving the rest on the AC. You can also save $$ by utilizing inexpensive keypads that come with the system to control other devices such as shades or speakers and not having to buy dedicated switches. If you plan on automating at least 70 loads, the hard-wired system is the best way to go. But unless you can find a good installer, I would not recommend it.
 
RadioRA or UPB are the next best systems to consider from reliability point, but RA is much more expensive. Also, RadioRA is best interfaced with HAI, Elk can do it as well, but is missing a button press trigger. I am not very familiar with RTI, but it is a closed system, so I would go with whatever they recommend for the components.

 

[uscpsycho]

Thanks. There is always something to learn for a first timer like me.
 
I'm leaning towards Elk over HAI because of better Android control. Will Elegance or even Omnibus work with Elk? I feel like this is probably a stupid question.
 
Do you know if Lutron's Homeworks compare to the other two in terms of price?
 
Finding a good installer does indeed sound like a challenge. 

 

[picta]

Homeworks is the most expensive system, then Omnibus, then Elegance. Neither have a driver for Elk, but HAI supports all three.
How many loads do you want to automate?

 

[uscpsycho]

Homeworks is the most expensive, but I assume still cheaper than RadioRa. Correct?
 
The plan is to automate the entire house, inside and out. 3,500+ square feet. I don't know exactly how many loads it will be but it's over the 70 load threshold you indicated.
 
If I go with Elk are there any hardwired lighting systems that will work with M1? 

 

[picta]

I believe Homeworks is on par with RadioRA in terms of hardware pricing. But Homeworks will require certified Lutron installer, they do not sell to the public direct. If you can afford it, it's a great system, mostly installed in offices and high-end houses.
 
You don't have to buy your HA components right away, just need to decide if you want a home-run or "conventional" lighting, and focus on planning the wiring for everything else. By the time you are finished with the rest of the remodel, a new app for Android may show up, or HAI will fix the snaplink or....then you can make your final selection of the components. As long as the wire is in place for everything you wish to automate, you will have choices.
 
Here is a sample list of what to wire to your "central closet"
 
1. Sensors: doors, windows use 22/2 security wire, motion/glassbreak 22/4, smoke detectors 22/4 firewire
2. Window shades: 16/2 for power 22/4 for control
3. Thermostats: cat5, temp/hum sensors 22/4
4. Cameras: cat6 plus 18/2 for power
5. Speakers: 14/2 or 16/2 speaker wire
6. A/V drops: 2 cat5+2cat6

 

[uscpsycho]

Thank you for that! Super helpful!
 
I know I can wire now and decide on components later but that will be more expensive. If I hire someone to do the entire job it will be cheaper than paying someone to wire the house now and then someone else to install the components later. I assume... So if I want one outfit to do the whole job I have to pick an installer that is a pro with the system I want.
 
Because I insist on having a robust & reliable Android app the choice is between RTI and Elk. If I end up hardwiring everything then my only choice is RTI because it sounds like none of the hardwired lighting systems will play with Elk. Fortunately, Elegance which is the cheapest option will work with RTI.

 

[Drewscm]

I was in the same boat a year ago, I went a non conventional way did most of the work myself.

Just wanted to throw out there for lighting I used Wattstopper Digital lighting management system, it's completely modular so can be a big system or a small system. I like it because it is its own system and can be controlled via BACnet modbus or simple rs-232. It also made it nice when it came to multiple light switches in one location, I always laugh when we go through parade of homes and million dollar+ homes have 4 or more traditional light switches lined up or stacked. I have occupancy sensors, planning on adding photo eye for outdoor lighting just not high on my priority list. With the right module you can program the whole system via PC, very simple. Another nice feature, I programmed light switch near my bed to turn all lights/loads off in the house and one as a "panic" switch to turn all lights on. It is a commercial system so it's not the cheapest, items can be found online and also through local distributors. My electrician ran all the high voltage... I did some... But I ran all LV to switches and sensors. It's a fully networked system so switches and sensor can be daisy chained up to a 1000' of cat 5. The electrician was impressed with the system, he had never installed one. I found that most contractors in my area are a little behind when it comes to technology, wouldn't take much for a few of them to do some research and shine in the eyes of potential customers.

I am running my system through Open Remote off a server that I already have running for Home Media and network backup. Open remote had been great I have been able to control sprinkler system, audio, video, security, lighting, heating cooling, shades and more. I have iPad apps setup and just have to mount them in the wall as UI's... Wife is getting sick of seeing wires hang out of the wall where they will be mounted.

I spent countless hours researching before I built, I found a lot have great features but programming can be a problem and price can be a problem. It led me in my current direction and haven't looked back. It has been time consuming programming the system and I will probably always be adding to it, but it is coming in handy now.

I am an engineering so I do live for new technology!

 

[uscpsycho]

My contractor knows less  than zero about home automation.
 
Are these hardwired lighting systems something I would have an electrician install or would a HA installer?
 
How does Wattstopper compare to Elegance on price? And will it work with the Elk? Open Remote's Android app hasn't been updated since 2010. Sheesh.

 

[twohawks]

@uscpsycho:  I have been perusing your posts since the "paralysis by analysis" thread I recently found from last year.  Went to your profile to track followup posts since it seemed that thread was suddenly abandoned, and I see you are picking up the development trail again.
 
I have interest in your (type of) quest due to my own related challenges, mostly focussed at this point on what to do about panel and wand user-interfaces, but more on that another time...
 
What sort of lighting are you planning on deploying: incandescent, LED, CFL?  Reason I bring it up... I have been challenged for the past year with the task of sorting through all these apparent issues with the new LED technology, and the industry lag in addressing common issues related to things like
 - lighting temperature management,
 - support for various LED lighting tech from the various lighting controls manufacturers such as Leviton, Lutron, Insteon, etc, AND
 - ***support for various DIMMING NEEDS/CAPABILITIES from various LED lighting tech manufacturers (including lights and cans) by various lighting controls manufacturers.
 
LED lighting tech is still in its infancy, and while the various lighting controls manufacturers are, indeed, coming out with switch controls that support LED tech, its not all the same in terms of capabilities.  A lot depends on specifications the LED lighting and cans manufacturers are building for, and also specifications for lighting control interfaces they may work with.
 
Bottomline is, if it hasn't been tested, or if its not specified by the control manufacturers, then its questionmark soup.
 
We conducted lots of testing over the last year, and it results were quite disheartening.
Some of the lighting controls manufacturers, like Lutron for instance, lists compatible lighting manufacturers, BUT that does not guarantee certain performance....
 
On the last*** listed item above I have been particularly challenged to find technologies combinations having capability for dimming below between 8-to-12% without buzzing or flickering.  What most do is, during deployment, they determine the limits, and then set caps in their switches-tech so once you hit the margin~threshold for flickering or buzzing (for that particular deployment installation), you simply have the light go out (i.e., it will dim to as low as, say 11%, and then it goes out)... which I have found most distasteful to our clients.
 
I strongly suggest you start sussing out your needs in this regard prior to purchase and deployment of any new lighting.  I have been freaking rabbit-holing this issue for a year, and its definitely got its own 'paralysis by analysis' factor.
 
Also, remind me/us what city you are in... didn't you mention this project is in the Los Angeles/So.Cal area?
 
-------------
Just to mention some things...,
 
Although I am an eletronics engineer (since the late 70's) -and non-too-shabby either, I have nowhere near the experience or knowledge in HA as most posters here at Cocoontech (I bow in admiration to our masterful brothers here).  
Generally... I have a Crestron and several HAI systems deployed around the country.  The Crestron system has been a huge money pit.  Its a monster, and it works like one, but I there's no question an HAI or Elk system would have sufficed had we not been in the X-10 era when that one went in (a hoity-toity installation, especially for "back in the day", to be sure).
 
The HAI systems started out as X-10 based systems in smaller home-deployments years ago, and we have been gradually upgrading them to UPB in recent years.  I have to say I have been very impressed with what one can do with UPB.  I don't think there's anything one couldn't do with it, really (not including A/V systems, obviously).
 
We have a new locale under remodel with an existing HAI w/UPB/HLC managed system, and I am migrating that off UPB to Lutron due to the LED lighting system upgrades.  While newer UPB switches may handle it, I cannot afford to find out otherwise during deployment, and I am clean out of time for more bench testing (investments).  Research for the LED tech we have set our sights on indicates Lutron will definitely tackle it, and I mean dimming down to 1%.
 
Just fyi, I could elect to keep some of our UPB deployment and simply add on the Lutron integration -as HAI handles that natively; and if I was controlling more things at that locale with UPB, say garage doors, water features, fans, etc, I most certainly would not remove it.  UPB is some tough and reliable tech. I would say its one of those things that always "simply works".  And you have already read about some of the UPB coolness factors in work2play's blog stuff hereabouts.
 
Anymonday.... I just thought I'd chime in on the lighting considerations factoring.  You need to reign that in along with your other assessments criteria.
 
Just my two-sense.  I look forward to hearing how you tackle your project and how that pans out.

 

[uscpsycho]

It would also cost me twice to replicate the system with UPB and 4+ times with Lutron devices (the 2 retrofit systems that at least can be close in reliability comparison), and many features I would not be able to replicate at all. It will cost less per device in a larger install, for small installs of less than 48 devices the hard-wired system is not the cheapest alternative. Also, the labor of running high voltage wire is less expensive due to the home run, you can design the system to minimize the run length by installing the panels in separate location. We have 2 locations that are roughly a half of the house length apart, they are connected together by a LV wire. The HV wiring is mostly a straight line in the attic between the fixture and the panel, no romex wire in the walls for switches, as those are cat5 based, and we run them ourselves as part of the rest of LV wiring. Most house outlets are wired in traditional way, but we also have a few dedicated controlled ones. So it can be done, and done without breaking the bank, but most likely by those who already had home automation experience and were wishing to move up the quality ladder, just like we did. But for a newcomer to home automation, the retrofit technologies would be a safer bet, because they can fall back on standard switches in case things do not work out.

 
You're saying that Lutron can cost 4 times as much as a hardwired system. But when I inquired with one of the installers I was talking to about going with hardwired over Lutorn RadioRa2 he said that the wired Centralite will cost more than the Lutron RadioRa2 and will not perform as well. He said that he recently replaced a Centralite JetStrem with RadioRa2 because the JetStream had constant problems and didn't have the features he wanted. Not sure what JetStream (wireless) has to do with Elegance (hardwired) unless he's just saying Centralite is not a good product in general. Maybe both Elegance and JetStream lack features that Lutron has?
 
Is there much truth to what the installer here said?
 
 

@uscpsycho:  I have been perusing your posts since the "paralysis by analysis" thread I recently found from last year.  Went to your profile to track followup posts since it seemed that thread was suddenly abandoned, and I see you are picking up the development trail again.
 
I have interest in your (type of) quest due to my own related challenges, mostly focussed at this point on what to do about panel and wand user-interfaces, but more on that another time...
 
What sort of lighting are you planning on deploying: incandescent, LED, CFL?  Reason I bring it up... I have been challenged for the past year with the task of sorting through all these apparent issues with the new LED technology, and the industry lag in addressing common issues related to things like
 - lighting temperature management,
 - support for various LED lighting tech from the various lighting controls manufacturers such as Leviton, Lutron, Insteon, etc, AND
 - ***support for various DIMMING NEEDS/CAPABILITIES from various LED lighting tech manufacturers (including lights and cans) by various lighting controls manufacturers.
 
LED lighting tech is still in its infancy, and while the various lighting controls manufacturers are, indeed, coming out with switch controls that support LED tech, its not all the same in terms of capabilities.  A lot depends on specifications the LED lighting and cans manufacturers are building for, and also specifications for lighting control interfaces they may work with.
 
Bottomline is, if it hasn't been tested, or if its not specified by the control manufacturers, then its questionmark soup.
 
We conducted lots of testing over the last year, and it results were quite disheartening.
Some of the lighting controls manufacturers, like Lutron for instance, lists compatible lighting manufacturers, BUT that does not guarantee certain performance....
 
On the last*** listed item above I have been particularly challenged to find technologies combinations having capability for dimming below between 8-to-12% without buzzing or flickering.  What most do is, during deployment, they determine the limits, and then set caps in their switches-tech so once you hit the margin~threshold for flickering or buzzing (for that particular deployment installation), you simply have the light go out (i.e., it will dim to as low as, say 11%, and then it goes out)... which I have found most distasteful to our clients.
 
I strongly suggest you start sussing out your needs in this regard prior to purchase and deployment of any new lighting.  I have been freaking rabbit-holing this issue for a year, and its definitely got its own 'paralysis by analysis' factor.
 
Also, remind me/us what city you are in... didn't you mention this project is in the Los Angeles/So.Cal area?
 
-------------
Just to mention some things...,
 
Although I am an eletronics engineer (since the late 70's) -and non-too-shabby either, I have nowhere near the experience or knowledge in HA as most posters here at Cocoontech (I bow in admiration to our masterful brothers here).  
Generally... I have a Crestron and several HAI systems deployed around the country.  The Crestron system has been a huge money pit.  Its a monster, and it works like one, but I there's no question an HAI or Elk system would have sufficed had we not been in the X-10 era when that one went in (a hoity-toity installation, especially for "back in the day", to be sure).
 
The HAI systems started out as X-10 based systems in smaller home-deployments years ago, and we have been gradually upgrading them to UPB in recent years.  I have to say I have been very impressed with what one can do with UPB.  I don't think there's anything one couldn't do with it, really (not including A/V systems, obviously).
 
We have a new locale under remodel with an existing HAI w/UPB/HLC managed system, and I am migrating that off UPB to Lutron due to the LED lighting system upgrades.  While newer UPB switches may handle it, I cannot afford to find out otherwise during deployment, and I am clean out of time for more bench testing (investments).  Research for the LED tech we have set our sights on indicates Lutron will definitely tackle it, and I mean dimming down to 1%.
 
Just fyi, I could elect to keep some of our UPB deployment and simply add on the Lutron integration -as HAI handles that natively; and if I was controlling more things at that locale with UPB, say garage doors, water features, fans, etc, I most certainly would not remove it.  UPB is some tough and reliable tech. I would say its one of those things that always "simply works".  And you have already read about some of the UPB coolness factors in work2play's blog stuff hereabouts.
 
Anymonday.... I just thought I'd chime in on the lighting considerations factoring.  You need to reign that in along with your other assessments criteria.
 
Just my two-sense.  I look forward to hearing how you tackle your project and how that pans out.

 
Yes, I am in Los Angeles and I am planning on LED lights everywhere. This is eye opening. But I'm a little confused by some things you said. First you stated "Some of the lighting controls manufacturers, like Lutron for instance, lists compatible lighting manufacturers, BUT that does not guarantee certain performance...." which indicates that even with Lutron there are no guarantees things will work as expected even if you use Lutron with compatible cans. But then you said "Research for the LED tech we have set our sights on indicates Lutron will definitely tackle it, and I mean dimming down to 1%." which indicates that with Lutron can definitely be relied upon to dim down to 1%. What am I missing?
 
Based on your experience, if you were putting in LED lights would you definitely go with Lutron to ensure performance? And what combo gets you that 1% dimming?