I will look over the contract but at this point its kinda mute because it was the house the Mrs. wanted at the right price and in the right location so we knew we weren't going to back out. The builder has just stated time over and over that its because of insurance purposes. The guy who built two lots down from us actually pulls LV wiring for a living and they wouldnt let him do his own wiring and he is insured. I still think it all goes back to follow the $$$$$. Why let a homebuyer do his own wiring when you can overcharge them and make more porfit?
prewire alarm question
- Thread starter xclusive
- Start date
pete_c
Guru
Really that's all its about.
The pre-wire in FL for the alarm panel was on the supposition that I was going to install an alarm system from an alarm company that the builder used for most of his new construction. After completion of the house I called the alarm company for a quote on installation of their panel. It was somewhere between 5-10K. I purchased an HAI OPII panel and installed it myself.
Initially I did take the electricians drawings for the new house and added my stuff asking the contractor how much it would be for the LV wiring. I also looked at the LV wiring that he was doing with other custom homes in the area. The contractor was pleasant. I really didn't like what I saw relating to how and what they were doing for the LV wiring and what they were charging at the time. I asked politely and he said no problem. I did the LV wiring after the electricians had put their boxes in but before they had actually wired for electric in one weekend.
Here in the midwest we looked / interviewed at least 10 contractors or more over a period of a year. My wife and I had a checklist. First question though related to what I wanted was that I would be able to do the LV prewire; a "no" eliminated the contractor from the list. If they even initially mentioned that I couldn't visit or check on the construction during construction; then the contractor was off the list immediately. There were a few contractors like that in the area. It was building boom time around this area and contractors were a dime a dozen. (around 2002-2003).
The pre-wire in FL for the alarm panel was on the supposition that I was going to install an alarm system from an alarm company that the builder used for most of his new construction. After completion of the house I called the alarm company for a quote on installation of their panel. It was somewhere between 5-10K. I purchased an HAI OPII panel and installed it myself.
Initially I did take the electricians drawings for the new house and added my stuff asking the contractor how much it would be for the LV wiring. I also looked at the LV wiring that he was doing with other custom homes in the area. The contractor was pleasant. I really didn't like what I saw relating to how and what they were doing for the LV wiring and what they were charging at the time. I asked politely and he said no problem. I did the LV wiring after the electricians had put their boxes in but before they had actually wired for electric in one weekend.
Here in the midwest we looked / interviewed at least 10 contractors or more over a period of a year. My wife and I had a checklist. First question though related to what I wanted was that I would be able to do the LV prewire; a "no" eliminated the contractor from the list. If they even initially mentioned that I couldn't visit or check on the construction during construction; then the contractor was off the list immediately. There were a few contractors like that in the area. It was building boom time around this area and contractors were a dime a dozen. (around 2002-2003).
Photon
Active Member
My builder 'discouraged' me from doing my own prewire saying they have had real problems when the building inspector doesn't like what he finds. Who pays for the delay? I didn't like some aspects of his sub's low voltage install on a model home, so I negotiated a trade - empty boxes with conduit stubbed to the basement in most exterior walls instead of his standard phone & TV package. I could easily pull cable in the interior walls, and the boxes with conduit allowed me to install what I wanted in the outside walls without disturbing insulation and vapor barrier.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Look at your contract for sure.
But if you own the lot, and you are paying for the construction of the house as it is built (in other words, the builder doesn't own it), they would have a hard time blocking you from doing the LV work. It would pretty much have to be in the contract that you can't do it.
There is no inspection of LV stuff. So that is complete BS. Obviously you can't start sticking your LV wires into the same boxes with the HV stuff. And any holes in fire blocks would be the responsibility of the framers to plug regardless of who drills the hole (plumber, electriciton and so on).
Like you said, it is about the $$$$$. They want to hire the sub and inflated dollar figures and then mark it up on you.
But if you own the lot, and you are paying for the construction of the house as it is built (in other words, the builder doesn't own it), they would have a hard time blocking you from doing the LV work. It would pretty much have to be in the contract that you can't do it.
There is no inspection of LV stuff. So that is complete BS. Obviously you can't start sticking your LV wires into the same boxes with the HV stuff. And any holes in fire blocks would be the responsibility of the framers to plug regardless of who drills the hole (plumber, electriciton and so on).
Like you said, it is about the $$$$$. They want to hire the sub and inflated dollar figures and then mark it up on you.
Sounds like the builder will look the other way for you to prewire as long as it doesn't interfere with their schedule. I would plan to have everything ready to go right after the electrical inspection. Line up a helper as it really cuts down on the time. They probably don't want to tell you it's ok because of liability or some such but if you just happen to show up and do it (wink, wink) and something bad happens they can say they never told you that it was ok. Given the legal system in this country I can't really blame them for that.
Make things easy for them so there aren't lots of wires hanging out they might have to explain to the inspectors after the drywall is up. If you know where things are behind the drywall (pictures or measurements) then it will be pretty easy to cut a hole and put in the equipment and hook up the wires.
Make things easy for them so there aren't lots of wires hanging out they might have to explain to the inspectors after the drywall is up. If you know where things are behind the drywall (pictures or measurements) then it will be pretty easy to cut a hole and put in the equipment and hook up the wires.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Lou, in a lot of cases (very common around here), when a new development goes up, people can put a deposit down on a house and it's essentially "theirs", but not 100%... financing can fall through for certain reasons or a homebuyer might work a last minute major upgrade, or things like that which would cause the actual purchase to not go through. The purchase isn't recorded until the home is complete and the buyer can actually take possession. For that reason, anything you do to a house that may not become yours in the end causes problems and liability for the developer.
When meeting with homebuilders I found that attitude very common; in a large chain there was nothing you could do but home that the onsite people would look the other way (enough would tell you the magic weekend, etc)... only the much smaller local communities would allow you to specify that you want your own.
Of course, if you buy a lot and hire a contractor to build a house on it, then they work for you and must do what you say or you can fire them... they can't take your house.
When meeting with homebuilders I found that attitude very common; in a large chain there was nothing you could do but home that the onsite people would look the other way (enough would tell you the magic weekend, etc)... only the much smaller local communities would allow you to specify that you want your own.
Of course, if you buy a lot and hire a contractor to build a house on it, then they work for you and must do what you say or you can fire them... they can't take your house.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
For the OP - you mentioned 2 keypads; personally I like 3 - one by the front door, one by the back door, and one in the master... if they're going to do 2, make them the hardest to wire ones; the master is generally upstairs and easy to wire. Even if the front door use is rare, it's where guests, house-sitters, etc - would enter; and there are always times when something is in the garage and you can't park there for a couple days.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Yes, I agree. That was what I meant by a "quasi custom" in my earlier post. It is common practice all over the place in "tract" neighborhoods. As I suggested earlier, sometimes offering up a larger "down payment" will get the builder to agree. So if you bail, and he needs to rip the stuff out, he doesn't lose money.
I have another questions on RG6QS vs cat5e & if anyone has had any experience with this wiring.
My new subdivision has fiber run thru it and we have the option of doing HDTV, phone & internet all by using cat5e only. I would like to get a consensus on just running cat5e for all of those or do you think this would pigeon hole myslef into using a certain company only because I don't have RG6QS wired in the house. I was told that all cable/satellite companies would be going towards this in the future but of course they couldnt gurantee when. I know I can do this with my local company but several calls to comcast has all failed as they seem to be clueless what I am talking about. If anyone can share some of their experiences I would greatly appreicate it.
Thanks,
My new subdivision has fiber run thru it and we have the option of doing HDTV, phone & internet all by using cat5e only. I would like to get a consensus on just running cat5e for all of those or do you think this would pigeon hole myslef into using a certain company only because I don't have RG6QS wired in the house. I was told that all cable/satellite companies would be going towards this in the future but of course they couldnt gurantee when. I know I can do this with my local company but several calls to comcast has all failed as they seem to be clueless what I am talking about. If anyone can share some of their experiences I would greatly appreicate it.
Thanks,
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I've been off comcast for about a year, but never heard of any option that use just ethernet. DirecTV uses a single coax that does network and TV... so I would definitely keep the coax. Hopefully someday ethernet will be the way of the future, but if you think about it, the majority of homes have more coax than ethernet, so TV providers would be silly to abandon that until Ethernet is much more prevalent.
pete_c
Guru
I put RG6 and Cat5E. For security cams I ran RG6/Siamese/Cat5E. I did have one issue; the telephone wiring guy started to daisy chain cat3 wires for the telephone. I asked him politely to use my Cat5E and to home run the cables. Here in the MW I ran cable for satellite and broadband cable. I am still using both. Same thing in FL. Only there I switched over to FIOS from satellite (telephone, TV and Internet). For the office I ran PVC tubing in the floor for network and telephone. It goes to a box in the center of the room and is used today for my desk. I did similiar for where the LCD is today; with very deep shelves built into the wall and multiple PVC tubing under the structure for the cabling.
I did the same for the keypads (Omnitouch) with one by each exit and one in the master bedroom.
When the FIOS was run the technician hooked it up to the RG6 on one side of the house. From there he went to their combo do all box (for TV - coax, network and wirless). For the telephone he ran a separate Cat5E to the old telephone box. He also put a small UPS adjacent to the d-mark inside of one of the walk in closets for the telephone circuits.
I did the same for the keypads (Omnitouch) with one by each exit and one in the master bedroom.
When the FIOS was run the technician hooked it up to the RG6 on one side of the house. From there he went to their combo do all box (for TV - coax, network and wirless). For the telephone he ran a separate Cat5E to the old telephone box. He also put a small UPS adjacent to the d-mark inside of one of the walk in closets for the telephone circuits.
I do a lot of prewire and get all of my work from word of mouth and references. I do not advertise and stay away from teaming up with builders. Generally speaking, the only reason a builder says no to a homeowner is due to him getting left out of the profits. That is secondary to licensing requirements in some states. Florida is a good example of regulated LV laws that restrict homeowners from doing some of this work on their own without permits ect ect.
When it comes to quotes, I have done well because I dont make it tricky and confusing. My prices (which isnt an advertisement here, just advice) is $25 a run (minimum 12 runs). Thats it. Simple, non confusing, and if they want to get service through me for monitoring, then I price out equipment (with part numbers so they can look online and shop) and MMR pricing. I have only had one customer not get monitoring and equipment through me. There are too many greedy contractors out there that have ruined this LV business that it makes me ill. I do honest work and make my profits on the labor and the contract for monitoring, not on confusing weird stupid mixed up package deals. Let the homeowner make the call on what they want, and then the customer is enthralled with the results because they opted for only what they wanted, and were not limited.
When it comes to quotes, I have done well because I dont make it tricky and confusing. My prices (which isnt an advertisement here, just advice) is $25 a run (minimum 12 runs). Thats it. Simple, non confusing, and if they want to get service through me for monitoring, then I price out equipment (with part numbers so they can look online and shop) and MMR pricing. I have only had one customer not get monitoring and equipment through me. There are too many greedy contractors out there that have ruined this LV business that it makes me ill. I do honest work and make my profits on the labor and the contract for monitoring, not on confusing weird stupid mixed up package deals. Let the homeowner make the call on what they want, and then the customer is enthralled with the results because they opted for only what they wanted, and were not limited.
Lou, maybe in your area, LV is not inspected or looked at, but up here, it's definately inspected and checked over, both in the rough and in the completion stages. Firestopping is always verified no matter what, and the normal SOP is the contractor that made the holes is the one responsible for firestopping around here, which is really firecaulking more than anything else.
Some municipalities are tougher than others, but some won't even issue a C of O unless any cables/wires are terminated at a device, in other words, if you have a 4/22 sticking out of the wall, they won't issue unless it has a device attached or a blank plate covering it.
Also, most municipalities up here will issue a homeowner's permit for electrical (within reason) however whether or not the LV is covered under that permit or under a secondary permit for LV only is the AHJ's call. All the AHJ's I have dealt with will treat a HO rough the same as a pro run job.
As far as video and set top boxes and running cabling for such, Motorola and the other manufacturers came up with an agreement that the next generation of boxes will support both coax and category cabling and be able to be switched for either, as the legacy installs have coax already installed. If you're unsure at the moment, I'd honestly recommend running both, as the cabling isn't expensive and even installing a 4" box and single gang mud ring is a trivial expense to allow enough room to work with behind the wall.
Thanks for all the responses so far. It is really helping me out along with just reading the site. I decide to go with installers can since upgrade to me wasn't reasonable. I havent decided on a system to use yet and was wondering do I have to use a specific brand name's can? Reason I ask is becasue I have standard 20inch can that came with the package for structured wiring and last night I saw where my local Home Depot has 42in cans on clearance right now for $40. I'm no expert by any means but this looks like a great deal to me and would like to know if I can use it with any system I choose once I move in the house?
Thanks
Thanks