RS-485 splicing

mikefamig said:
Interesting about the protected side needing to be longer than outside and it's a deal breaker for me. What is the logic behind that?
I'll leave the LB unless I have trouble with it. AS you know, I have had trouble with crimping the B connectors with a plier. I didn't strip the wires though and will try that the next time.
@ Neuro: For everything but most mission critical I end up using the trusty T& B 112M. Have been using the same pair daily for 16 years. I just happened to pick up the real deal on a whim after going into the history of the B-connector...curious as to if they existed on the 'bay and if their splice quality was better or the same as my T&B's. There's more involved, but I'll leave off at that.
 
@ RAL: Those crimpers are no different than the old 112M I use or their counterpart. In actuality they're really for the insulated terminals (butt, spade, ring) like Sta-kons and not B-connectors. They perform a 2 stage crimp for insulated terminals: Crimp the barrel and collapse the colored portion (as in a sta-kon) around what would be the single conductor entrance point. The ratchet portion performs nothing other than forcing the user to go through the entire crimp motion, not really going to have an effect on an over/under crimp on a parallel die anyways, but the same holds true with normal crimping pliers also.
 
@ Mike: I put a Ditek on each end of the building to building run with a clamping voltage just above the normal service voltage. In the case of a 950, the clamping voltage is just too high to really protect a data bus or panel, but it's better than nothing (ring voltage in the neighborhood of 90+V and around 48 constant) and that will definitely cause damage to the bus or zone on a panel. While it's better than nothing, it's the wrong device for the application, but good for phone lines. Also, 950's are transorb based products...enough hits and they flash to ground; they weaken on each surge they take. Not a huge deal with telephone (just a hum on line) but can cause very weird things to happen on a panel with no EG reference. For an example within this state, I have an access control system at Foxwoods. Gets hit by lightning often. Had surges on the cabling but until we got the clamping voltage value just right, devices would still cook even though the surge was installed properly.
 
The protected side connection is supposed to be longer than the ground wire to allow the protector enough time to act. While we're talking fractions of a second, if the path to ground is shorter than the protected cabling, it'll bleed the transients to EG before it hits the electronics (in theory). We don't care about protecting the field wiring per se, only the equipment at each end of the run (IE: panel, PTZ cam, IP encoder, NVR, etc.)
 
Mike- the data is passthru, you're worrying too much about the speed and data.
 
Ditek: DTK-4LVLPX 4BA/FA LOOP SURGE
 
@ Work: I think climate may have a lot to do with the overall choice in cabling, I do a ton of mission critical outdoor and if in conduit, it's the black outdoor rated cabling and preferably flooded. I can't comment as to your specific locale, but I don't think you get the severity as we do up here. I've had outdoor cabling fail where the flooded cable is still working (SIP based emergency phones and IP cameras). Usually I see the non-flooded cable used when people are cheap OR the cable is going a significant distance continuous within a building/conduit.
 
DELInstallations said:
Mike- the data is passthru, you're worrying too much about the speed and data.
 
Ditek: DTK-4LVLPX 4BA/FA LOOP SURGE
 
@ Work: I think climate may have a lot to do with the overall choice in cabling, I do a ton of mission critical outdoor and if in conduit, it's the black outdoor rated cabling and preferably flooded. I can't comment as to your specific locale, but I don't think you get the severity as we do up here. I've had outdoor cabling fail where the flooded cable is still working (SIP based emergency phones and IP cameras). Usually I see the non-flooded cable used when people are cheap OR the cable is going a significant distance continuous within a building/conduit.
 
DEL Good morning -
 
My specific locale is pretty much the same as yours, I live about fifteen miles from your home town. Also all of the houses in this neighborhood have sump pumps, it is wetter than average.
 
Thanks for the part number. The cables are in a conduit and I don't regret using the flooded cable. I have had people tell me that it is dry inside the conduit but that is a myth. Condensation causes the conduit to get a lot of water in it and you have to assume that your cable is submersed. The gel filled cable is messy to work with but I didn't have a big problem with it.
 
Can you tell me how the Ditek is selected? Is it solely on voltage? And is a a threshold that I'm looking for. I'm thinking that being a 12 volt system that I should be looking for a surge protector rated at or around 15 volts?
 
Mike.
 
EDIT
 
What is the 4BA/FA designation?
 
I usually pick surges out based on the application, but the clamping voltage is 14V, close enough to the operating voltage of an alarm panel but low enough to really help prevent severe damage.
 
The service voltage is within the tolerance of a slightly overvolt M1 or PS (~13.5VDC) and the MCOV is low enough to not be outrageous (18VDC) but the unit clamps at 22V, so that should (in theory) bleed off the voltage before it really cooks something.
 
I chose 4 pair based on my application I was installing in (I actually put in 2 pair for the building run) which was an M1 bus, FA circuit brought back to the main panel (I didn't want to run on expander because of the last time a bus went down for this customer it wasn't pretty) and enough to provide relay connections or whatever else I needed out there (I was pulling 3 pair shielded PLTC direct burial 18AWG). I probably could've just run 2 3 pair units and been done and in hindsight I probably should've done that....I was bleary eyed trying to finish up the project and didn't pay enough attention to the cutsheets when placing the order.
 
And yes, you are correct Mike, underground conduit is always wet for the reasons mentioned. Usually, when transitioning from gel flooded to indoor cabling, the problem is most people don't do it properly or plan accordingly and just wipe off the gel and then hope for the best. Usually I recommend (unless the parties are being cheap) to use a scotchcast kit and transition to other cable as soon as it is practical.
 
DELInstallations said:
Mike- the data is passthru, you're worrying too much about the speed and data.
 
Ditek: DTK-4LVLPX 4BA/FA LOOP SURGE
 
@ Work: I think climate may have a lot to do with the overall choice in cabling, I do a ton of mission critical outdoor and if in conduit, it's the black outdoor rated cabling and preferably flooded. I can't comment as to your specific locale, but I don't think you get the severity as we do up here. I've had outdoor cabling fail where the flooded cable is still working (SIP based emergency phones and IP cameras). Usually I see the non-flooded cable used when people are cheap OR the cable is going a significant distance continuous within a building/conduit.
 
DEL
 
I can find the DTK-4LVLPX but don't know what you mean by "4BA/FA LOOP SURGE". I have looked ata the data sheet and install instructions and no mention of that. What does it mean?
 
Is this the correct part?
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/141454975128?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
Mike.
 
DELInstallations said:
Usually I recommend (unless the parties are being cheap) to use a scotchcast kit and transition to other cable as soon as it is practical.
 
I plan to pull the gel filled cable inside the building and connecting it to the Ditek surge protector. Is it really a problem? I'll heat shrink the end of the cable jacket to contain any gel from leaking out.
 
Mike.
 
Doesn't look like the right PN, but I can't really make it out. There's a ton of suffixes to put together the surge and that looks like a couple are missing.
 
The 4 BA/FA surge refers to the application. I pulled the description out of my line that I ordered it from. Most likely referring to application (Burg Alarm, Fire Alarm)
 
As far as the cable, it depends on the construction but IMHO, if you have the room, a couple of $20 scotchcast kits is cheap insurance to ensure the gel doesn't creep out. Maybe you can try the adhesive lined shrink or the weatherproof type, but I'd still expect creep where the conductors butt each other. Only way I can see around this is the same way you break out fiber....basically break the cable out, sleeve it and shrink it individually then together and let it all become a single unit (octopus).
 
DELInstallations said:
Doesn't look like the right PN, but I can't really make it out. There's a ton of suffixes to put together the surge and that looks like a couple are missing.
 
The 4 BA/FA surge refers to the application. I pulled the description out of my line that I ordered it from. Most likely referring to application (Burg Alarm, Fire Alarm)
 
As far as the cable, it depends on the construction but IMHO, if you have the room, a couple of $20 scotchcast kits is cheap insurance to ensure the gel doesn't creep out. Maybe you can try the adhesive lined shrink or the weatherproof type, but I'd still expect creep where the conductors butt each other. Only way I can see around this is the same way you break out fiber....basically break the cable out, sleeve it and shrink it individually then together and let it all become a single unit (octopus).
The 4LVLPX is 12 volts service voltage and 22 volt clamping voltage. Is the 22 volts sufficient protection?
 
http://www.ditekcorp.com/Docs/ProdGuides/LVLP%20Series%20Datasheet.pdf
 
Mike.
 
Why do I feel like I'm re-inventing the wheel here? I asked this same question about protecting the buried cable from lightning over at the Elk site three days ago with no reply as of today. The peak service voltage in the elk data bus is known to Elk and they have the experience to tell me which device would protect their system successfully in a lightning strike. I'm sure that it's a been there done that situation but still the answer eludes me.
 
  I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge to Elk and to installers who have buried an rs-485 cable for an Elk M1 system. It seems to me that this part is a known commodity and that there is a very simple straight forward answer.
 
Why can't I get a simple "here buy this part, it works" answer?
 
Mike.
 
A RS-485 interface uses differential signalling on the data lines.  As such, the voltage difference between the A and B signals is usually on the order of a few volts.  The main concern would be any common mode voltage between each data line and ground, which RS-485 specs in the range of -7V to +12V.   So a clamping voltage of 22V is a reasonable choice. 
 
I gave the answer ;)
 
Elk can't necessarily endorse a specific 3rd party product....think about it. I had that issue when I worked for Notifier tech support. I can suggest Ditek, Edco or similar and provide the values the device should meet (IE: listed, voltage range, conductors, etc.) but naming a specific device would be a tough one. Usually it's worded as "or equivalent". In the case of their products, yes a 950 would work, but again, knowing the specific clamping voltage, reaction time and service voltage and compare that to telephone service known values....telephone service is a different animal (DC voltage with AC ring) While it will work for a pair of cables on the telephone side (AC protection separate) the clamping voltage is going to be really high compared to 22VDC because of the nature of the beast (16.5VAC for the power and 48~130V for the phones!).
 
That said, what is a best practice and what others do in the field are two different items...any time a fire alarm circuit leaves the building it's supposed to be surge protected (code) but how many times do guys do that when there's an outbuilding with a heat detector or two? Zone expander with fire on it? Burg system, it's not required.
 
Same goes for design criteria on the M1; do others make outbuildings their own branch and the main house another? Is that considered and thought of?
 
The M1 (from memory) runs about 7V to ground on the 485 (less between A/B) and around 7-14V on a zone depending on the EOLR (M1) and other panels being around 3-5V/12V. So all that being said, the one I cited gives a service voltage of 14VDC, MCOV of 18VDC, clamping at 22V/5A;less sneak current considerations.
 
DEL - makes sense - I do a lot in a world where we have big vertical runs so GEL is an absolute no-no... but if I think about it, my large underground runs have been Gel filled.  We don't have the temperature extremes that others have either.  I know we have code that states that the underground cabling can't go more than 50' indoors so we have to do a transition shortly after it enters the building - I don't recall the rating but I think it's the underground GEL stuff.
 
DELInstallations said:
I gave the answer ;)
 
Yes you have been generous with your help and information and I should have qualified that.
 
DELInstallations said:
Elk can't necessarily endorse a specific 3rd party product...
 
I suppose that very likely is the case. But that does leave a very big open end for customer's in my situation. I can't be the first DIY'er to bury a cable to an outbuilding and won't be the last. I'm surprised that they didn't set me off in the right direction. I would have contacted Ditek or Polyphaser but I didn't have the M1 specs to supply to them. That is where I need help from Elk (or DEL thank you). I thought that they know what has been used successfully with their system in the past.
 
It could be just that everyone at Elk tech support took this week off work for the holidays.
 
Mike.
 
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