Shut OFF water heater during peak power times

I used to have an electric tank. Tried various things to improve the power use. Just make sure that your "off" period is long enough to make it worth while, as a setback is generally better then an "OFF".

That's why when the wife and I upgraded (before we moved :-( ), we went NG tankless. WELL WORTH it. I WISH we didn't install it in the last house and took it with us, then replaced the NG tank in this house. Power bill went down by $80+ / mo. Just make sure it's a large enough unit to handle the load in your house.

--Dan

Dan,

The OFF time will be 4 hours. The water heater is an "energy smart" model and will not usually come ON unless cold water enters the tank. Since the relay will cost about $35, the payback period will be about 8 months.

My next water heater will also be a tankless model.

Steve Q
 
I use a RIBU1S relay in a box to "monitor" the pump. I tapped into one of the hot wires coming off of the pump side of the pump controller. That wire plus a neutral and ground go to a wall outlet mounted next to the pump controller. I have a wall wart plugged into the wall outlet that controls the coil in the RIBU1S. Note that the RIBU1S coil allows 120Vac so I could have gone directly from the controller to the RIBU1S, but I like working with low voltage.

On the contact side of the RIBU1S, I have a state/event logger from onsetcomp.com (the U11-01). The U11 logs state changes (dry contact opens/closes) as long as the new state lasts at least a second. Since my well will stay on for close to a minute whenever it comes on, the one second requirement is not a problem. Also, the U11 can track up to three separate state change devices/relays, so this particular U11 tracks well pump on/off, irrigation master valve on/off, and water softener regen. I have another U11 that logs things dealing with my electrical system.

The U11 data logger is a USB device. I haven't set up the communications side of things yet, but I have prototyped it and it works. The U11 works with a device called a USB server by Keyspan (part of Tripp-Lite). The USB server is used to communicate with the data logger via a LAN. So the USB server plugs into the LAN on one side, and has four USB ports. Once the data logger is on the LAN, I can use the onsetcomp.com software to get the data from the logger to my PC via a "readout", which is basically just dumping the data from the data logger to the PC. The software has various options for graphing the data, automatic readouts, etc. It also has alarm/event notification capabilities but that part doesn't support the U11, e.g., you can't trigger an alarm if the data logger sees a state change. For me, that's the biggest downside of the software. To get around it, I will probably do frequent readouts to a CSV file, then interrogate the file with CQC. The alarm/event notification stuff works with most of their other sensors, e.g., temp, humidity, voltage, current, etc. I have spoken with the manufacturer about enhancing the software in a couple of relatively easy ways that would make their loggers/software great for HA stuff, but they haven't committed to any of the enhancements. I don't think they see HA as a big market because they haven't heard such requirements from HA folks. I just got a sensor from them yesterday that will be used to monitor the voltage of the battery used by a standby genset. In this case, I will be able to get an email notification when the battery drops too low. I will use CQC to process the email and trigger an alarm.

I still like the loggers. They are small (half the size of a deck of cards), easy to use, seem to be very reliable, relatively cheap (around $40 per sensor if you buy a multichannel logger), and I like the idea of a self-contained device doing that kind of stuff.

The long term goal is to feed everything into CQC and display it visually like an industrial process control monitor with animated graphics to show the pump running, water flowing, etc. I've got a couple of flow switches to monitor water flow on/off thru a couple of main pipes (one to the house, one to the irrigation system). I've built a box that contains a pump protector that will shut off power to the pump if rapid cycling or current problems are detected. The box also contains a pump relay that will shut off the pump if a future ELK M1 detects a water leak. I have additional "monitor relays in the box that detect when the pump protector or leak relay shuts off power, or if the circuit breaker trips. I hope to have a few pressure sensors somewhere in the system, but I haven't found a reasonable solution for that yet. If I can get a graphics artist to do the animated PNG files on the cheap, it should really look good. I should be able to detect things like the pump running but no water being used (not good, unless it's just topping off the pressure tank), power shut off from the circuit breaker, pump protector, or leak detector, water softener regens, etc.

Ira

Thanks for the detailed information. It sounds like you have spent a lot of time and effort on your data logging system. I never really considered a datalogger because Homeseer logs everything so I just create separate CSV logs for various appliances. I don't know anything about CQC but I am very familiar with MS Excel and Access so I have setup a spreadsheet that automatically imports the ON/OFF times for all my appliances and shows the overall house power consumption. So far I am pretty close (+/- 10%) to my electric bill.

I am also using an xAP network of power monitors on several branch circuits in the house. This is where I could use a datalogger!!! I have quickly learned that real time power monitoring requires a lot of data collection. Right now I am collecting readings from 5 monitors every 15 seconds. That fills up the 65,000 rows of an Excel spreadsheet in just 11 days! I will take a look at the U11 data logger.

Thanks,
Steve Q
 
BSR and Ira,

The "relay in a box" is really a great looking product. I have a question: the "relay in a box" appears to be designed to be mounted to an existing electrical box. I would like to mount it to my main electrical panel. But the 24V coil wires would be inside the main box. It is my understanding that it is a code violation to have low voltage wiring inside the main panel??

Steve Q
Steve;

I believe that as long as the wires to the low voltage are rated the same as any high voltage they could become exposed to you will be ok. FYI, I'm not an expert in code. :)

I am a novice when it comes to electric code. I have however researched this issue in the past because I designed a current sensor circuit board that uses a CR3110 transformer. My intent was to put the CR3110 inside the electrical panel with its wires leading outside the box to a small circuit board connected to a DS10A. So I spent a lot of time going through the National Electrical Code book. I could not find anything specific, so I posted my device on several bulletin boards. I got a lot of feedback saying this was against code? A few people cited the "TED" as an example: i.e. it had to have a wireless connection to the electric panel.

Any and all comments are appreciated!

Steve Q
 
Guys,
Can you post a link to these Relays in a box. I did a Google search and didn't get a proper hit.
 
A few people cited the "TED" as an example: i.e. it had to have a wireless connection to the electric panel.

Any and all comments are appreciated!

Steve Q


TED and Brultech are not wireless connections, the CT's need to be inside the box, where the measurement device is outside the box. Then there is a wired or wireless connection to the display unit
 
I am a novice when it comes to electric code. I have however researched this issue in the past because I designed a current sensor circuit board that uses a CR3110 transformer. My intent was to put the CR3110 inside the electrical panel with its wires leading outside the box to a small circuit board connected to a DS10A. So I spent a lot of time going through the National Electrical Code book. I could not find anything specific, so I posted my device on several bulletin boards. I got a lot of feedback saying this was against code? A few people cited the "TED" as an example: i.e. it had to have a wireless connection to the electric panel.
My understanding is that it is not a "wire" rating issue, but rather an "insulation" rating issue. Basically ALL the wires inside a box with HV need to have insulation rated for the HV. That is one reason you find some Cat5/5e cable with a 600V insulation rating.

The Brultech CTs have insulation rated for HV and their instructions state that the CT wires must be routed outside the HV panel before connecting to LV wiring. This is similar to what you wanted to do with a CR3110, assuming its leads were rated for HV.

The RIBs I have used have 600V rating on ALL their leads, which leads me to believe that they can be used in a HV box.
 
Thanks, Wayne , Your explanation makes the most sense of anything I have heard so far. I didn't expect to get any resolution about the issue of low-voltage wires inside the main electrical panel, so I have decided to attach the RIB24P30 to the Box where I have 3 contactors for my electric baseboard heaters. This will be almost as easy. Better to be on the safe-side.

In the meantime I will contact CR Magnetics and find out if the insulation rating on the CR3110 is 600V. This is very encouraging!

Steve Q
 
BSR and Ira,

The "relay in a box" is really a great looking product. I have a question: the "relay in a box" appears to be designed to be mounted to an existing electrical box. I would like to mount it to my main electrical panel. But the 24V coil wires would be inside the main box. It is my understanding that it is a code violation to have low voltage wiring inside the main panel??

Steve Q
Steve;

I believe that as long as the wires to the low voltage are rated the same as any high voltage they could become exposed to you will be ok. FYI, I'm not an expert in code. :)

I am a novice when it comes to electric code. I have however researched this issue in the past because I designed a current sensor circuit board that uses a CR3110 transformer. My intent was to put the CR3110 inside the electrical panel with its wires leading outside the box to a small circuit board connected to a DS10A. So I spent a lot of time going through the National Electrical Code book. I could not find anything specific, so I posted my device on several bulletin boards. I got a lot of feedback saying this was against code? A few people cited the "TED" as an example: i.e. it had to have a wireless connection to the electric panel.

Any and all comments are appreciated!

Steve Q

The TED 1000 has quite a bit of stuff that goes inside the load center. Not only the CT's and their wires, but also what they refer to as the MTU goes inside the box. The CT's plug into the MTU, and the MTU has a hot wire that goes into an available circuit breaker, as well as a neutral wire that goes into the neutral bar. The MTU broadcasts the data over the home's power lines to the display unit.

Ira
 
Thanks for the detailed information. It sounds like you have spent a lot of time and effort on your data logging system. I never really considered a datalogger because Homeseer logs everything so I just create separate CSV logs for various appliances. I don't know anything about CQC but I am very familiar with MS Excel and Access so I have setup a spreadsheet that automatically imports the ON/OFF times for all my appliances and shows the overall house power consumption. So far I am pretty close (+/- 10%) to my electric bill.

I am also using an xAP network of power monitors on several branch circuits in the house. This is where I could use a datalogger!!! I have quickly learned that real time power monitoring requires a lot of data collection. Right now I am collecting readings from 5 monitors every 15 seconds. That fills up the 65,000 rows of an Excel spreadsheet in just 11 days! I will take a look at the U11 data logger.

Thanks,
Steve Q

The good thing about the data loggers and most other single purpose devices is their reliability. They usually work well because they don't do much. I don't have to worry about losing data if the PC crashes or I have to shut it down for a while, etc. because the data logger is still logging. However, another downside for these particular data loggers is that they are powered solely by a user-replaceable battery. The battery doesn't last long if you are taking readings every second on all four channels, maybe only a couple of months. The software allows you to monitor the battery level, so you can be alerted if it gets low. It seems like they should be capable of taking power from a wall wart or the USB cable, but they don't. The batteries in my state logger will last a long time because the states don't change very often (water well pump starts maybe ten times a day, irrigation system starts a few times a week, water softener regens every week or so, etc.). It's when you get into something like monitoring a genset's battery by taking voltage readings every second (like I'm about to do) that runs the battery down quickly (and fill up memory even faster).

Ira
 
Dan,

The OFF time will be 4 hours. The water heater is an "energy smart" model and will not usually come ON unless cold water enters the tank. Since the relay will cost about $35, the payback period will be about 8 months.

My next water heater will also be a tankless model.

Steve Q

Thought so. I've seen your investigations on energy savings in the past (so I know you did your homework), but I thought I'd toss it out there for "others" to benefit from!

--Dan
 
Slightly off topic question. Any way to control a gas water heater for the same purposes?

It has been a long time since I've had a gas water heater so I don't have any experience. I'm just guessing but I would suspect that newer models don't have a pilot and use some sort of glow plug or spark generator to light the burner. I suspect if the power (120V is turned off) the burner will not run.

Steve Q
 
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