Structured Wiring solution and estimated cost

[rherring]

Hello all,
 
First time post and I have questions about cost and what I'm looking to get for my structured wiring solution.
 
This is a new home build, but we have to use their low voltage vendor.  The home is a two-story home built on a slab with attic access and is 3200sf.  They are offering Cat5e but I really want Cat6 (for future use of that technology)
 
Total amount of RG6 runs: 11
Total amount of Cat6 runs: 10
4 speaker pre-wire
5.1 surround sound pre-wire
 
Total Cost: $2900.00
 
Is this a good price? Any suggestions?  
 
Here is what the overall structured wiring consists of that I'm looking to do:
 
First Floor
Family Room: 2RG6, 2Cat6, 1HDMI, 1 chase pipe (TV will be mounted on the wall), 2 pre-wire for in-ceiling speakers
Kitchen: 1Cat6, 1Phone
Study: 1 Cat6
Bedroom: 1RG6
Patio: 1RG6, 1Cat6, 2 Pre-wire for speakers
 
Second Floor
Owners Suite: 2RG6, 2Cat6, 1Phone
Loft (Theater): 2RG6, 2Cat6, 5.1 surround sound pre-wire (3 front, 2 rear, 1 sub)
Bedroom: 1RG6, 1Cat6
Bedroom: 1RG6
Bedroom: 1RG6
 
Thanks!
R
 

 

[tannebil]

The price doesn't sound crazy.  I'm not sure if I'd get too hung up on CAT6 vs CAT5e.  If you can get CAT6, great, but it not, it's not a disaster.
 
What about a prewire for the surround sound speakers in the living room?
 
I'm not wild about having rooms without network drops. I've got a couple of rooms like that and I ended up having to hack around in the walls to get connections later.
 
I'd prewire speakers in the kitchen and owners suite.
 
I'd prewiring the doors and windows for an alarm system.
 
I'd want a network drop at each location where I was going to install audio or video equipment.
 
I'd want at least one network drop in the garage.
 
If you have any thought about wanting video surveillance at a later date, you should prewire CAT6 to the likely locations. You can then use cameras that use PPOE for power.

 

[rherring]

Thanks for your response.  I was getting a little hung up Cat6, but the contractor is only offering Cat5e so I think I will be getting that.
 
The contractor is pre-wiring the whole house (doors, etc) for security...this is built into the cost of the home.
 
I like the idea of having a network drop in the garage.
 
I keep going back and forth about pre-wire speakers in the owners suite...it costs $530 but I do get 4 pre-wire runs for that cost.
 
Thanks!

 

[tmbrown97]

As said above, don't get hung up on Cat5e vs. 6 - there's actually not really anything out today (nor is there likely to be in the next 10 years) in a residential setting that exceeds Cat5e.  You can run gigabit just fine; that said, it's absurd that the contractor won't budge - that's just stupid; it's one box of cable vs. another - pulling it is the same (granted it's thicker) and terminating it is the same - just in Cat6 spec'd terminations.  I'd like to see that contractor give a logical explanation.
 
I also saw above that you have Cat5e drops and "phone" separate.  I'd avoid that - and even more importantly, make sure that they're not trying to split a single Cat5e into a network and phone jack - in 10/100, only 2 of the 4 pairs are used but in gigabit and many POE scenarios, you need all 4 pairs.  I've heard horror stories of LV contractors cheaping out and splitting a single wire that way.  And also there's really no reason to run "phone" differently - it's a friggin' wire - run it as Cat5e the same as all the rest and terminate it that way.  Then you're not limited - it can be POTS today and VOIP tomorrow.
 
I'd run a minimum of 2 CatX cables and 1-2 RG6 per room - in fact if given the choice during new build, I run two wall plates per room on semi-opposing walls with 2 of each - that accounts for just about any furniture configuration and they can be split out for different things with baluns.  That's similar to how I've done commercial settings for more than a decade and it's always paid off in spades.  
 
Also +1 on prewiring for security cams - on exterior walls that's really hard to retrofit because exterior walls are about the worst to run wires into.

 

[rherring]

Thanks for that response. The contractor won't budge and the only reason they gave me was they don't use it. I'm just trying to future proof but I'm going to have to get Cat5e.

Another issue is the contractor wants to have all my RG6 run to the demarcation point...that's not structured wiring is it? I thought you had a cable line feed in from the street to the demarcation point and the from there you run a cable line to the access panel and then have the RG6 runs from the access panel to the wall plates.

Is what I'm thinking correct?

 

[tannebil]

I suppose it depends on what the contractor means by "run to the demarcation point". For example, in my house all the internal coax and CAT5E wiring goes to a cabinet mounted on a wall the the garage.  On the other side of that wall, both the cable company and the telephone company have their demarks with the customer side feeding through the wall up into the cabinet.  However, the demarks and internal wiring termination don't necessarily need to be physically close.
 
There are lots of different physical implementations that qualify as structured wiring so there isn't a "right" design.  All designs are about trade-offs.
 
I'd want all my wiring (coax and CAT) to terminate in a single location that's easy to access and has plenty of space, power, ventilation, and is well protected so that I can co-locate a UPS, communications equipment like routers, and even servers or video equipment. I'd prefer it to be in a space that is heated and air conditioned rather than the garage.
 
That said, I'd surviving with my wiring in 42U cabinet hung on the wall in the garage, my network equipment sitting on a desk in the kitchen, and my servers in the den. I connect the coax drop in the kitchen to the modem and router, then route the LAN back to a switch in the garage enclosure where it's distributed throughout the house. But I can dream about what I'd do with new construction.
 
If you have a lot of coax drops, maintaining the signal strength can be a problem. Most likely you'll need an amplifier either from the cable company or your own. The advantage of getting it from the cable company is that they will take more responsibility for keeping your signal strength up. You want to avoid using splitters as that just makes things worse.Typically, the coax is split two ways with one leg going to the cable modem and the other going into the amplifier and distributed to the TV's. My experience is that the first time you have a problem, the cable company will want to make sure it's connected as they want it so anything you've added like amps and splitters is stuff they want to replace. It's a PITA.
 
Depending on the construction and layout, you may need multiple wireless access points to maintain a good signal everywhere in the house. Might as well think about where you'd locate them now. If you can get a drop into a central location for a wireless access point, you might be able to avoid the complication of having more than one. That's harder with a two story house as the antenna are designed to work best on a horizontal plane. Your "machine room" is unlikely to be the best location for a single wireless access point.

 

[tmbrown97]

I have to admit in a situation like that, I personally would threaten the builder that if he didn't let me clean things up or choose a different contractor, I'd walk - the one you're dealing with is a flat out incompetent jackass and I wouldn't want my home wired by him.
 
That said, I'll try and ignore that and think of this almost like a purchased home that was prewired...  you've got what you've got and now it's time for damage control.  If he runs all the cable to one place, and all the network to another (and what's he doing with phone? Did you confirm that he's running real separate runs for each?) - then I'd at least demand a Cat5e between each location so you can patch things together if you want.  Even if you run DirecTV, which now runs a single Coax, at some point you need to bridge Coax and Ethernet together.
 
Again - Personally, I'd walk from the whole deal before dealing with a moronic contractor like that - he just doesn't belong in the business, and the only reason he's still in the business is because of builder ties; no consumer would tolerate that.  Just out of idle curiosity, where are you at (metro area/state)?  
 
If you were to read through the past threads or been around a while, you'd be surprised at the number of people who have worked with the homebuilder to figure out how to do some skunkworks wiring - figuring out the key date when the electrical is done/inspected and before drywall starts - many homebuilders with enough pushing and prodding will give up when that critical period is and look the other way if you come in and pull what you want yourself.  The hours will likely be miserable and with a crunched timeframe, but even still, at least you get what you want.
 
The house isn't built - and you're buying it - get what you want because changing it after it's built is 1000X harder than you may think - I promise you'll never do it - so get it right in the beginning and don't take "no" for an answer.
 
Lastly - re the RG6 - insist that there is not a single splitter involved - it must be 100% home run to a single location.  Preferably the same as internet/phone but workable if it isn't - but again - NO SPLITTERS/ALL HOME RUN.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Make sure the RG6 is quad shield also.

 

[rherring]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm in Raleigh, NC. What I don't like is that the contractor wants to have the electrician do the RG6 runs and so that indicated to me that this will not be true structured wiring because they are going to run everything to the demarcation point.

I'm kind of stuck now because we have a signed contract, but all they told us was who we had to use for the low voltage wiring so I just assumed that their contractor would have all the LV options we wanted. By the way, the contractor specializes in security systems and LV Audio/Video wiring is not their speciality IMO.

Based on my first post, could someone help me understand the ideal configuration for my structured wiring needs? When you say "home run" to a single location what exactly would that mean?

I want to have everything laid out so when I present my final SW proposal there will be no misunderstandings.

Thanks again for all your responses and suggestions.

 

[tannebil]

Running all the coax to a single point, whether it's the demark point or not, is what you want.  As Work2Play noted, ideally you want all the network wiring run to the same spot and you want all your runs to be "home runs" meaning that the cable goes directly from the wall plate to the central point without any splitters or intermediate breaks.  If you run enough coax now, you'll avoid the problem of having to add splitters later.  
 
Much of your design is about anticipating future needs rather than meeting current needs.  For example, my house is a custom build by the previous owner who was convinced he would never want TV or phone in the living room so, after I got it, I had to add a splitter in the bedroom to get coax into the living room and use MoCA to get a wired network connection in the living room (which works but is so much worse than CAT5E).  On the one hand, they used CAT5E for the telephone wiring so it was a piece of cake to repurpose it for my network. On the other, they only pulled one wire to every room so if I needed hardwired phones, I'd be screwed. In the ideal world, you'd run conduit everywhere with pull-strings so that it would be easy to replace or add new cables but that's unusual in home construction because of cost and (maybe) code issues.
 
I've attached a link to a photo of my wiring cabinet just to give you a feel for what it might look like. As you can see, the coax runs come down the left side of the cabinet and the CAT5 on the right.  The CAT5 is terminated in a wiring block of RJ-45 connectors which cross-connect into a switch. The coax comes down into a splitter and the small box with the red light at the bottom is the amplifier installed by Comcast. You can't see it but the coax and phone wiring (not used) from the demark come up through the bottom. There's also a standard wall box in the bottom with two 120V sockets. Make sure the electricians wire power into the cabinets and they are on their own circuit.
 
http://db.tt/NgiNhgh2
 
If it was a new build for me, there would be a lot more wires so I'd want a more horizontal room (maybe two interconnected cabinets) plus I'd want some deeper, connected space with lots of room for a decent size UPS, a cable modem, a network switch, and a cable amplifier.  Higher end installations use a standard rack for this stuff which looks good but I find them to be a PITA to work on.
 
The installer should also:
 
1. Clearly mark all the wires so you can easily see which wires go to which rooms. And not with some crappy paper tag that will fall off in a couple of years or by writing on the cable. Numbers are OK provided that the faceplates have matching numbers and there's a cross-reference posted in the cabinet door. I use labeler with special tape designed for network wiring (not as stiff as the normal labels).
 
2.  Test and certify all the CAT5E and coax connectors. All the F-style connectors should use compression connectors (not screw-on or crimped). Ideally, the coax goes directly to the connector on the wall plate but sometimes they are fitted with an f-style connector and screwed into the back of the wall-plate in which case, the installer should be using a torque-wrench to make sure the connection is correct. There's two different ways to wire an RJ-45 plug and they should use TIA-568A.
 
3.  Document each wiring run showing the routing and points of attachment. You'll need it if you have a problem later with one of the runs.
 
If the contractor seems to be out of his depth, you might find an AV/LAN contractor to work with the other contractor. Or just have the contractor pull the wires without terminating them and bring someone else in to finish the job.
 
Whew!

 

[rherring]

Thanks Tannebil for this great information and the pics! I'm starting to get a better grasp on things. The contractor will not be terminating anything in the closet so I do have some flexibility there. I'm going to have one conduit pipe running from the access panel to the attic space. This should help to add/update wiring on the second floor at a later time, but the first floor will be a pain since the house is on a slab.

The price starts to add up real quickly as I'm adding these additional runs. Just to give you an idea of cost for each run regardless of distance:

RG6 = $110/run
Cat5e = $110/ run
Each conduit pipe = $250
4 pre-wire speaker = $520
5.1 pre-wire speaker = $450
110v outlet = $100

So with a total of 20 runs that would be around $2,200.

 

[tannebil]

I'm sure that's why I ended up with missing drops.  They were trying to keep costs within budget and went with an upgraded dishwasher instead of drops in the living room. Dropping an extra couple of grand on cables "just in case" can be hard to justify but it's ugly and painful to not have them later.
 
Just to pile on, make sure there's a CAT5 drops near the location where the door/window/sensor alarm wires terminate if they terminate in a different location than the coax/CAT5. Two would be better (one for a network connection and one for a phone connection).

 

[tmbrown97]

There's two different ways to wire an RJ-45 plug and they should use TIA-568A.

T568A is more prevalent in older buildings or protocols, but T568B is far more prevalent in the networking world (and has been for 15 years).  Doesn't make a lick of difference as long as both ends are terminated the same - since the basic result is the same just with different pairs.  Fun Fact: T568A on one end and T568B on the other end makes a crossover cable.

 

[tannebil]

That will teach me about the dangers of reading Wikipedia which says:
 

TIA/EIA-568-B specifies that horizontal cables should be terminated using the T568A pin/pair assignments, or "optionally, per [T568B] if necessary to accommodate certain 8-pin cabling systems". Despite this instruction, many organizations continue to implement T568B for various reasons, chiefly associated with tradition (T568B is equivalent to AT&T 258A). The United States National Communication Systems Federal Telecommunications Recommendations explicitly forbid T568B, as does all US Federal guidance on new construction for the US Government. T568B is deprecated (removed) in the current TIA/EIA-568-C standard

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIA/EIA-568
 
Book learning can be a dangerous thing. But the key point is that it doesn't really matter which is used as long as it's used consistently in your house so you need to make sure the wall jacks and the closet are done the same way.

 

[rherring]

Here is the proposed final breakdown and cost of what I'm getting.  Could not get Cat6 so I'm going with Cat5e.  All the data will be homerun to the 28" access panel.
 
28" Structured Wiring upgrade-includes 6 Cate5e                       $904.59 
(3) Additional SW Data Cat5e                                                       $330.87
(1) 2 PR speaker pre-wire w/volume control                                $529.41
(1) 5.1 Surround Sound pre-wire                                                   $448.53
(1) HD Link 25 (includes 1 HDMI, 1RG6, 1Cat5e)                         $602.94
(1) AV Chase Pipe 1.25" (from attic to access panel)                  $257.35

Total Cost for Structured and Low-Voltage Wiring:  $3,073.69
 
I'll have 7 RG6 installed by the electrician and 5 of these comes standard with the home so I'll pay for an additional 2.  All RG6 will run to the demarcation point which will be run to the individual rooms.
 
What do you think? Cost? Options of what I'm getting, anything I'm missing, etc.
 
Anticipated Room Breakdown (wall locations TBD)
Standard RG6 (5)
Owners Suite
Bedroom 2
Bedroom 3
Bedroom 4
Bedroom 5
 
Standard Phones (2)
Study
Owners Suite
 
Additional RG 6 (2)
Loft - 2
 
Structured Wiring Cat5e (9)
Loft - 2
Owner - 1
Bedroom#2 - 1
Family - 1 (this is in addition to the one included in the HD link 25)
Study - 1
TBD - 3
 
Thanks,
R