Suggestions for 20amp DPDT relays, DIN/rail mount

signal15

Senior Member
Anyone have experience with these? I need something I can mount to a rail inside of a NEMA rated electrical box.

I looked at doing a subpanel and a large 100amp reversing contactor, but those things are expensive and difficult to find used. I'm thinking a separate 20 amp relay for each circuit is going to be the cheaper way to go. Using it to switch my power source between two different meters/panels that have different rates at different times of the day.
 
Could you keep the neutrals common and go with a SPDT relay instead of DPDT? Same power feed from the utility?
 
Anyone have experience with these? I need something I can mount to a rail inside of a NEMA rated electrical box.

I looked at doing a subpanel and a large 100amp reversing contactor, but those things are expensive and difficult to find used. I'm thinking a separate 20 amp relay for each circuit is going to be the cheaper way to go. Using it to switch my power source between two different meters/panels that have different rates at different times of the day.

I've needed external relays several times in the last few years, controlled via an Elk M1, for sprinkler pumps and an HVAC fresh air duct fan. I chose the G7L series from Omron with DIN rail mount, covers and a test button. 2 are DIN mounted in a NEMA box by the pumps.

http://www.component...le/G7L_0609.pdf

G7L-2A-BJ-CB-AC24 DPST NO, Screw terminals, 25A, Test button and bracket mount

P7LF-D DIN Rail mounting adapter
P7LF-C Cover for screw terminals

The PDF also has the spacers and end plates for DIN rails if you need them along with options for DIN-mounted socket base.

These are not cheap, so your 100A contactor may work out cheaper. The were about $17/ea when I bought them in 2008 and about $22 each now. Watch that some of the sites play games with shipping prices.

Jay
 
Just curious, but what exactly are you doing again? You want to switch individual loads from two different breaker sources instead of switching the overall feed to those breaker boxes with a 100a contactor?

And this strategy is going to be used 'just' to save money?

Just trying to wrap my head around what these relays would be used for. ;)
 
I've needed external relays several times in the last few years, controlled via an Elk M1, for sprinkler pumps and an HVAC fresh air duct fan. I chose the G7L series from Omron with DIN rail mount, covers and a test button. 2 are DIN mounted in a NEMA box by the pumps.

http://www.component...le/G7L_0609.pdf

G7L-2A-BJ-CB-AC24 DPST NO, Screw terminals, 25A, Test button and bracket mount

P7LF-D DIN Rail mounting adapter
P7LF-C Cover for screw terminals

The PDF also has the spacers and end plates for DIN rails if you need them along with options for DIN-mounted socket base.

These are not cheap, so your 100A contactor may work out cheaper. The were about $17/ea when I bought them in 2008 and about $22 each now. Watch that some of the sites play games with shipping prices.

Jay

After reading BSR's comment I re-read what you are trying to accomplish - don't do it.

When I answered with suggested relays I was contemplating a different scenario and not "hot" switching between power sources.

If there is any load on the circuit at all, you run big risks unless the sources are "in sync" for frequency, phase and voltage:

- Resistive loads (aka, lights) will probably do fine with a flicker, though you may be shortening the life of the bulb

- Motor loads (fridge, a/c) will cause the motor to be "slammed" back into phase to match incoming power which on the motor will damage it (bearings, windings, output gearing) with a huge inductive kick back through the relay contacts well in excess of the 20A/25A rating

- I don't know how electronic switches (ALC, UPB, ...) would react, but it can't be good

Tying neutrals also has some interesting questions because:
1) while they ultimately both tie back to ground, you have different paths so there likely will be a ground current loop;
2) because neither neutral can take the "full load" return for both power sources it is probably a code issue around current load (Yes, if everything is balanced the neutral current should be zero but design is worst-case);
3) if one source is disconnected you may have a lineman safety issue because they wouldn't expect a neutral return current if that source is disconnected.

The correct contactor for switching has 3 key features you need: 1) Current load for live switching, 2) Guaranteed break-before-make and 3) and "disconnected" position to allow everything to power down before re-applying power. I realize #3 is not what you want but if your sources are not exactly matched then it is required.

Note that my experience is from working with data centers that have multiple power sources, generators and UPS's (3 phase) all playing nicely together (usually) so it may not translate 100% to residential but the fundamental issues still apply.

My 2 cents for Saturday morning.

Jay
 
So how does the "in sync" part work for a typical residential standby genset and auto transfer switch? When switching from POCO to genset, there is a delay of 30 seconds or so when power is lost to ensure that it's not a momentary power loss, and to give the genset time to start and reach speed. But when it's time to switch back (after the ATS ensures the POCO power has "stabilized" for 15 seconds or so), it's extremely fast. I don't notice it, and none of my electronics seem to mind (UPS's don't complain that I know of, clocks don't reset, etc.).
 
The OP said different meters / panels not different power sources. As long as they are fed from the same feeder from the Poco there shouldn't be any issue with a quick switch between the two "feeds" as long as they are in "phase" with each other.
 
So how does the "in sync" part work for a typical residential standby genset and auto transfer switch? When switching from POCO to genset, there is a delay of 30 seconds or so when power is lost to ensure that it's not a momentary power loss, and to give the genset time to start and reach speed. But when it's time to switch back (after the ATS ensures the POCO power has "stabilized" for 15 seconds or so), it's extremely fast. I don't notice it, and none of my electronics seem to mind (UPS's don't complain that I know of, clocks don't reset, etc.).

Ira,

Did some digging since I haven't had to quote "typical" specs in a long time.

First, at 60hz a full "cycle" is 1000ms/60 = 16.66ms and consider this when looking at transfer times.

Stolen from Wikipedia, but in line with what I remember:
- Make-before-break/closed transition typically requires voltage within 5%, frequency difference 0.2% and 5 degree phase angle
- less than 100ms overlap

- Open transition/typical ATS are specified at "under 100ms" transfer time (1/10 second) but are usually no less than 50ms
(From the cycle side you have lost 3-6 cycles)
- All the ones I looked at online use either a motor driven rotary switch or 2 different relays synchronized by a processor
- A couple of them that were rotary switches had big warnings on them to not operate manually under load

A typical relay is anywhere from 5ms up to ~20ms depending on distance to travel and other factors, with most in this current range being 8-12ms. At this speed, you haven't lost a cycle. On the good side, you are pretty close to where you were and on the bad side you are 180 degrees off.

For a handful of residential circuits on an ATS that is exercised a few times a year, probably absolutely no issue at all. I see a potential for a bigger concern if this is exercised a couple times a day based on utility prices as it was described.

Also consider the UL Listing, specifically UL 1008 for Transfer Switches. Not sure insurance or the power company would be happy if there was any electrical fire with a non-UL transfer switch connecting 2 commercial power sources.

Ira - What generator/transfer switch are you running? I just want to pull up the details.

Jay
 
I have a Guardian (Generac) 5638 22kW liquid cooled 1800 rpm genset and a Guardian (Generac) RTSE200 ATS. The genset/ATS powers the entire house, not just selected circuits. There is no load shedding.
 
I'm jealous. Though, in reality, there probably hasn't been more than 8 times in the last 10 years I would have needed it for more than a couple hours but it would have been nice for the 3-day outage.

You have the real deal and the install documents on this are one of the ones I actually reviewed for my comments above. It is light on actual timing details but the parts diagram shows that it is 2 different solenoids, one to engage utility and one to engage generator (mutually exclusive), and has the "DANGER" warning to not do a manual transfer under load so it is monitoring/controlling the transfer.

Ultimately, it is a break-before-make and is probably in the 50-100ms transfer time and not that of a simple DPDT relay. In this, power is actually off for up to 1/10 of a second unlike the relay where it is never "off" but would go from a sine wave to a momentary square wave since it is never actually disconnected long enough.

He can always try it under a controlled test.

Jay
 
For clarification, these are two separate meters, but the same power feed coming out of the same transformer and service entrance. Neutral and ground are common.

The power company has a box installed that they can shut down. However, it will NOT shut down a whole panel. It will only shut down one circuit or is able to control relays/contactors. It will rarely be shut down.

I have already thought about the phase issue. I will just have to make sure that I'm putting the same phase on each relay. And someone else asked if a SPDT would work... it will. I forgot that it was a common neutral.

The cutover will happen under load. But the phase/freq will be in sync. If anyone can think of why this woud present a problem, let me know. If it will definitely be a problem, I'm fine with getting something that would cut power for a few seconds, and then reconnect on the other circuit. Nothing I am powering NEEDS to be up all the time. In fact, some of it will NOT swap over due to the requirements set forth to get my cheaper rate.
 
What this really sounds like is one of those deals where the power company installs a box so they can shed power usage during peak requirements; in CA they're often installed on the air conditioner and come with a discount on your overall bill. Furthermore, it *sounds* like you're trying to defeat that? Or is this something completely different?
 
What this really sounds like is one of those deals where the power company installs a box so they can shed power usage during peak requirements; in CA they're often installed on the air conditioner and come with a discount on your overall bill. Furthermore, it *sounds* like you're trying to defeat that? Or is this something completely different?

This is something different. I get a discounted rate on whatever goes into the box, and I can move over *certain* circuits to keep them going. But things like electric heat and hot water MUST be shut down, I cannot move those over. I have gas backup for those.
 
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