your 2 cents on my smoke alarm setup with elk m1

[Digger]

You can dream over and over that a 120V relay is going to be UL approved to connect a 120V smoke to a FC Panel, but I can tell you it has never and it will never happen. Never. If you think such a relay exists, please post a link for us.

I will say it again the BRK Model RM-4 is UL Listed and the instructions (which are a UL controlled document and its content has to be accepted by UL) have a wiring diagram and everything to connect it to an alarm on page 2 "To install this relay to an alarm connect the power wires as Listed below......" Whenever the interconnect becomes energized by a detector tripping into alarm the relay will activate until the detector resets.

My link

I actually asked a UL Engineer about this weeks ago and he confirmed it and said he believes that there are other mfg with similar relays that are also UL Listed and can be used to trip a FACP and are UL Listed for the application (they can not come out and state mfg name and model numbers as it could be perceived as endorsement). The BRK unit is also Listed to ULC S-531 and S530 for our Canadian neighbors.

Please don't confuse peoples opinions as to what the NFPA 72, IRC and UL really permit. I am not saying you have to like it but please dont state it a fact that something is not permitted. A locality may not permit it and that is up to the AHJ but the national, international and UL requirements dont prohibit it.

I worked in the Security and Signaling categories at UL for many years and I have worked for the last 5 years as a Compliance Engineer for an alarm mfg. We hear lots of misinterpretations of requirements all of the time from well intentioned customers and AHJ's. In the end an AHJ can tell you your detectors have to be purple but once they are pointed to the correct paragraph in the code, IRC or UL Standard they are almost always agreeable to what the code says (a few exceptions I know about in commercial applications).

 

[tmbrown97]

... If you think such a relay exists, please post a link for us.

I posted a link a while back... http://www.firexsafety.com/NR/exeres/A0CBB706-8A6B-468A-A11C-EC600BA7D871.htm

That said - BSR's idea sounds even better if compatible.

It sounds to me like the only real problem here is that it might not be acceptable to some AHJ's - not because these things are going to in any way jeopardize the ability of the detectors to do their job, but more so emergency resources aren't summoned by a less reliable system. Since the OP is trying to get additional signaling, not emergency fire dispatch, I can't see how this is a problem - that's what those relays were built and UL listed to do.

 

[apostolakisl]

When all else fails, read the directions. If you have a UL listed device and you stay true to the installation manual, I think all will be swell.

 

[ano]

What you may not realize is that there isn't just one UL code. There are many UL codes for many different situations and different use cases.

The RM4 is UL listed under UL217, UL2034, and UL539, but the problem is that these UL codes only cover "self-contained" systems. Self-contained is is what your 120V smoke alarms are. A fire alarm panel doesn't fall within the self-contained category.

Look up any of these UL codes and you will see for each..

"1.5 This standard does not cover the following:

a) Smoke detectors of the non-self-contained type that are intended for connection to a household or industrial system control unit. These are included in the Standard for Smoke Detectors for Fire Protective Signaling Systems, UL 268."

As it says, this is covered under UL 268.

But even ignoring that, again, do you really think a relay without battery backup would be approved for use with a panel that the UL requires to have 24 hours of backup time? Why do you think the UL requires 24 hours of backup for the panel, but hey, if the power goes out, who cares if your smoke alarms don't work? Ask the "UL engineer" that question.

But again its your house and your life.

 

[Digger]

Ano you are not familiar with ul985, the NFPA and the IRC requirements. You quoted the Scope of UL217 but that is an equipment standard not to be confused with an installation requirement.

You just don't like the fact that the code permits it and some installers do it. You are stating your opinion which you are entitled to but please don't state what you say are facts about this subject.

Ul Listed the relay for the application or it would not be permitted to be in the UL controlled installation instructions. The IRC specifically states it is a permitted method of installation in place of smoke detectors. The NFPA has nothing that prohibits it.

If you don't like it that is fine and I respect your opinion.

BTW I believe the relay does activate on battery backup but I have not tried it myself.

EDIT:

I am going to try and take a few minutes and clarify what you are reading at the risk of you saying its all double talk but it is not. THis subject has been beaten to death 100 times over in the industry.

UL217 is for Smoke Alarms that are listed as single and multi station units. Neither is Listed to directly connect to a FACP because the smoke alarm is designed for connection to the branch circuit. TO connect a smoke alarm to a FACP you have to use a UL Listed device designed to connect to the FACP and isolate the FACP from the branch circuit (the relay or RF transmitter such as the Honeywell Ademco UL217 Listed Smoke Alarms 5800 series). Dont misinterpret the UL'eze as saying a smoke alarm cannot be connected to a FACP with a properly Listed isolation device. Smoke Alarms can be PE or Ion type and in a few years may be required to be hybrid depending on a study being performed in the industry now.

UL268 is for smoke detectors that are listed to connect directly to the FACP and not the branch circuit directly (indirectly with the FACP or a Signaling Power Supply). Smoke Detectors can be PE or Ion type and in a few years may be required to be hybrid depending on a study being performed in the industry now.

The IRC states a premise must be protected by multistation smoke alarms optionally connected to a FACP with an exception of smoke detectors that must be connected to a FACP that has a whole host of other requirments such as being maintained etc.

The requirements are spread out in various documents written by various agencies and are often misinterpreted and sometimes conflicting at first and then revised. Any locality can have conflicting or additional requirements and any AHJ can have their own requirments.

Regulatory Compliance takes years of study and working in the industry and you still dont know everything. It is not something that can be learned just reading a UL standard or the NFPA as it is much more than that. International requirements are significantly more involved and differ drastically from the domestic requirements.

 

[tmbrown97]

I think the important thing to note here is that the OP isn't intending to hook this up like a FACP - you should be thinking of it as connecting to an auxillary notification device, which is exactly what the components were designed for.

Life Safety will be handled by the detectors per their original UL Listed and approved design; that function is not being moved to a FACP where battery backup comes into play, the use of appropriate fire rated wire, etc. If the connection to the panel fails or the relay doesn't operate because it's running off battery - he'll still get the notification exactly the same as he would today; he just wouldn't get the extra email and possibly extra rules running on his M1 to turn lights on, turn off HVAC, or whatever else he chooses. Again - those are great additions, but even if they all fail, by using an approved and UL Listed relay accessory designed for the device, there should be no risk to the basic life saving features of the device.