Confused about speakers/sirens and UL listed

LaurentR

Active Member
I am slowly getting into the whole security thing, and I think I've understood many things, but I am still confused about the items in the topic. This is all in the context of an M1G.

I think I understand that:
- A speaker is just a regular speaker with a fixed impedance and a max power.
- A siren is a speaker with an integrated siren driver. The input voltage is constant, and the max current depends on the speaker and the driver (I guess). For instance, the ELK-45 siren seems to be just a ELK-44 speaker with an integrated ELK-100 siren driver (true?).

Now I am confused about:
- What's a bell (from the M1G install manual for OUT2)?
- What is the OUT2 current when driving a x Ohm speaker (that's useful for total power)? Is there any risk of overpowering the Elk if the total impedance on OUT2 is >= 4 ohms?
- Is the sound/volume of OUT2 driving, say a ELK-44 speaker (in speaker mode), the same as a ELK-45 siren (in voltage mode)? Is the sound in the face of burg vs. fire patterns the same?
- Is OUT2 in speaker mode supervised?
- Why is OUT2 driving a speaker not UL, while OUT2 driving a siren is?
- Do I care about UL compliance for my personal home install?
- If I do, according to the M1 manual, I can't use OUT1. Why?

In addition, I'd like to know what people do here as far as using a speaker vs. siren on OUT2.

And optionally how common it is to have a backup siren. I am thinking of putting my main siren (1RT or 150RT) on OUT2 and visible from the street and a backup indoor concealed siren (say a 71 or 74) probably from OUT3.

Thanks in advance.

Laurent
 
I am slowly getting into the whole security thing, and I think I've understood many things, but I am still confused about the items in the topic. This is all in the context of an M1G.

I think I understand that:
- A speaker is just a regular speaker with a fixed impedance and a max power.
- A siren is a speaker with an integrated siren driver. The input voltage is constant, and the max current depends on the speaker and the driver (I guess). For instance, the ELK-45 siren seems to be just a ELK-44 speaker with an integrated ELK-100 siren driver (true?).

Now I am confused about:
- What's a bell (from the M1G install manual for OUT2)?
- What is the OUT2 current when driving a x Ohm speaker (that's useful for total power)? Is there any risk of overpowering the Elk if the total impedance on OUT2 is >= 4 ohms?
- Is the sound/volume of OUT2 driving, say a ELK-44 speaker (in speaker mode), the same as a ELK-45 siren (in voltage mode)? Is the sound in the face of burg vs. fire patterns the same?
- Is OUT2 in speaker mode supervised?
- Why is OUT2 driving a speaker not UL, while OUT2 driving a siren is?
- Do I care about UL compliance for my personal home install?
- If I do, according to the M1 manual, I can't use OUT1. Why?

In addition, I'd like to know what people do here as far as using a speaker vs. siren on OUT2.

And optionally how common it is to have a backup siren. I am thinking of putting my main siren (1RT or 150RT) on OUT2 and visible from the street and a backup indoor concealed siren (say a 71 or 74) probably from OUT3.

Thanks in advance.

Laurent

- What's a bell (from the M1G install manual for OUT2)?
Consider the Bell as the same device as the ELK-45 self contained siren. In past years the only way to get a UL listed sounding device was to use a Bell in a metal box. It is much easier to say "Bell" in the manual than go through the heart breaks of getting a siren UL listed. Just ask "Digger" who was the UL listing engineer on the M1 at that time.

- What is the OUT2 current when driving a x Ohm speaker (that's useful for total power)? Is there any risk of overpowering the Elk if the total impedance on OUT2 is >= 4 ohms?
Output 2 is a single transistor siren or voltage output. It is PTC fuse current limited to about 1 1/2 amps. An 8 ohm speaker being driven by a single transistor will draw about 7/10 amp. The ELK-100 siren driver has 4 transistors on its output
and can draw 1.5 amps. If drawing voltage output heavy loads on output 2, I suggest interfacing a relay with output 2 such as an ELK-912 so that the output transistor can not be overloaded.

- Is the sound/volume of OUT2 driving, say a ELK-44 speaker (in speaker mode), the same as a ELK-45 siren (in voltage mode)?
Output 2 is a single transistor siren driver and the ELK-45 is a 4 transistor siren driver. You will get more sound output using the ELK-45 or ELK-100 due to the 4 transistor output amplifier which doubles the voltage to the speaker therefore increasing the wattage or power going through the speaker coil.

-Is the sound in the face of burg vs. fire patterns the same?
Burglar siren sounds are a continuous siren sound. Fire is a temporal coded sound with 3 siren tones in a sequence then a pause, repeated over and over. The temporal Fire sound is an international fire sound.

- Is OUT2 in speaker mode supervised?
Output 2 was designed to be used outside, so therefore it has a current supervisory. It needs to draw some current through its speaker circuit from a speaker up to a 2200 ohm resistor will satisfy the current sensor. If you leave nothing connected to output 2, the keypad will display Output 2 Trouble.

- Why is OUT2 driving a speaker not UL, while OUT2 driving a siren is?
The M1 is not UL listed to drive a speaker. It is UL listed to drive a Bell or UL listed siren.

- Do I care about UL compliance for my personal home install?
NO! As a DIYer you could not install a certificated residential UL system. Some building inspectors look for a UL label in the control box when inspecting a new home. UL is your quality testing lab that insures the products are built to a high standard and meet industry guidelines. It cost ELK Products well over $100K to UL list the M1 and 18 months of time. ELK does not UL list every item it makes due to economic reasons, but all items are built with the same standards and industry guidelines.

- If I do, according to the M1 manual, I can't use OUT1. Why?
The UL manual for the M1 must give all instructions as if a certificated UL burglar or fire system was being installed. You will also read in the manual that many items concerning home automation has not been evaluated by UL. Let me say this politically correct, sometimes you must play by the rules, but you must also read between the lines.

I know that there are UL certificated residential burglar and fire systems installed in the US, but I do not know of or visited one in 35 years.


-And optionally how common it is to have a backup siren. I am thinking of putting my main siren (1RT or 150RT) on OUT2 and visible from the street and a backup indoor concealed siren (say a 71 or 74) probably from OUT3.
Use Output 1 for your inside voice and siren. It has a 24 watt amplifier that will blow you away.

I hope I have answered your questions.
 
UL will evaluate "core required features" of an alarm product for compliance with UL Standards, NFPA and NEC requirements etc. If the product has additional features that do not impede the required functionality of the product to meet the UL, NFPA and NEC requirements there is no need to have UL evaluate them.

UL evaluations are expensive and time consuming. I no longer work for UL but I work for one of my former customers when I was at UL. I have a control panel being evaluated at UL that is only a redesign from through hole to surface mount components with a few minor improvements. Monday was the 1 year anniversary and there is no end in sight. The cost is only around $30K at this point but it really is not that much of a change from the previously Listed design. The panel is a very basic unit (what you would get from an ADT or Slomins free or $99 install). The ELK M1 is a much more sophisticated unit and thus is more costly and time consuming to evaluate. How many panels need to be sold to make up for the UL costs alone.

Currently UL is changing some marking requirements for Burglar Alarm products. The quote I recevied from UL to evaluate my employers UL Listed Burglar Alarm products is $143,500. That is a paperwork evaluation and no testing is being performed. UL quoted 10 weeks turnaround time to evaluate one label with a cost of $4000 as one part of that quote. We now must decide if UL is a cost effective benifet for some of our products. I can do most of the work for UL and present it to them on a silver platter for their review and acceptance to lower that cost but it will still be expensive.

In addition UL requires perodic unannounced factory inspections that are also quite costly.

Because it is sooooooooooooooo expensive and time consuming to OBTAIN and MAINTAIN a UL Listing many manufacturers are Listing only the components of the system that perform the core functions of an alarm system. There is nothing wrong with that.

The industry is starting to trickle over to ETL a competitor of UL that evaluates products in a similar manner to UL and uses the same UL Standards. ETL is at times more economical but it just breaking into this industry. Dont be surprised if you see ETL marks on alarm and automation equipment in the very near future.
 
Great answers, very informative!

- What is the OUT2 current when driving a x Ohm speaker (that's useful for total power)? Is there any risk of overpowering the Elk if the total impedance on OUT2 is >= 4 ohms?
Output 2 is a single transistor siren or voltage output. It is PTC fuse current limited to about 1 1/2 amps. An 8 ohm speaker being driven by a single transistor will draw about 7/10 amp. The ELK-100 siren driver has 4 transistors on its output
and can draw 1.5 amps. If drawing voltage output heavy loads on output 2, I suggest interfacing a relay with output 2 such as an ELK-912 so that the output transistor can not be overloaded.
Although to avoid overloading of the M1G OUT2, the ELK100 has to be put on millimiser, which about that same current (but 12V)? So that's either the same power or just 2x more (and not 4x)?
Apart from power, is there any other reason to not use a speaker on OUT2?

-And optionally how common it is to have a backup siren. I am thinking of putting my main siren (1RT or 150RT) on OUT2 and visible from the street and a backup indoor concealed siren (say a 71 or 74) probably from OUT3.
Use Output 1 for your inside voice and siren. It has a 24 watt amplifier that will blow you away.
The issue is that while I want people to (clearly) hear the alarm, I don't want everybody to hear the voice annoucements. In addition, I am planning to use just a couple of the 32ohms speakers on OUT1, so if I were to add a serious speaker (8 ohms) in a location that's easier to hear from outside, people would also clearly hear voice announcements, which is why I thought that OUT3 would be a reasonable option. Of couse, I could also put 2 sirens/speakers on OUT2 in parallel, which is not recommended, but the monitoring would still check that at least one of them worked?

Laurent
 
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