I've been reading up on this, and it seems to be conflicting information, I know that Stranded/twisted is meant for shorter runs but in the "Wiring Your New House" guide, it shows running Stranded/twisted to keypads, thermostats, and IP cams, but my runs will be close to 100 feet. Do I still run Twisted/Stranded? Thanks guys!
100 ft run to keypad, Thermostat, or IP Cams - Cat6 Stranded?
- Thread starter sloav
- Start date
apostolakisl
Senior Member
For thermostats, I suggest thermostat wire. That is what the HVAC co's design their stuff to work on. It is also highly unlikely that you will ever need much length on a thermostat wire. After all, the HVAC's job is to pump conditioned air to the place where the thermostat is, and that can't be very far from the unit. And furthermore, how much bandwidth would a thermostat ever need? It's not like you stand at the thermostat and watch high def videos or something.
For any IP applications I suggest CAT6. It only costs a little bit more than 5e and offers longer gigabit distances and will work with 10gig whenever it happens to become available. CAT6 should give you gigabit for at least a couple hundred feet, while cat5e is unlikely to give you more than 75 feet at that speed. I have no idea how far 10g will run on CAT6, but it is supposed to work for at least a reasonable distance.
Keypads on many (if not all) systems use rs485 which will work for 1000's of feet on even lower standard wires. But again, cat6 is cheap and offers the ability to upgrade if/when there is ever a need to do, so just use it. Plus, it is just easier to only have the one type of wire rather than trying to save a few bucks but end up with multiple half empty boxes when you are done (which in turn ends up costing more).
For any IP applications I suggest CAT6. It only costs a little bit more than 5e and offers longer gigabit distances and will work with 10gig whenever it happens to become available. CAT6 should give you gigabit for at least a couple hundred feet, while cat5e is unlikely to give you more than 75 feet at that speed. I have no idea how far 10g will run on CAT6, but it is supposed to work for at least a reasonable distance.
Keypads on many (if not all) systems use rs485 which will work for 1000's of feet on even lower standard wires. But again, cat6 is cheap and offers the ability to upgrade if/when there is ever a need to do, so just use it. Plus, it is just easier to only have the one type of wire rather than trying to save a few bucks but end up with multiple half empty boxes when you are done (which in turn ends up costing more).
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Lou - nothing but respect intended for a fellow CTer - but this is quite inaccurate. Cat5 (not "e") will get you gigabit to a hundred feet easily. Cat5e will get you gigabit up to the full 100m (326') spec. Cat6 was actually quickly amended to Cat6a which has provisions for 10GB up to the 330' I think (not 100% sure) and IIRC, even 5e will get you up to about 100'.Lou Apo said:
Honestly there's nothing on the radar today that calls for 6a in a residential setting. Nothing in the foreseeable decade calls for anything greater than 5e. Not to say I wouldn't go 6a anyways - but I'll also include that the diameter of 6a is much larger so it does take up much more space in the conduit runs, etc.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback. For Cat wire, I will only be using Cat6, I just wasn't sure on the stranded/solid. unless Cat5e would be better in some applications. Wouldn't I need to home run my thermostat wire back to my rack? Or is the thermostat wire only from the HVAC unit to the thermostat, then I can use cat6 from the thermostat to the HAI(Hasn't been purchased, still debating on which system, I want to go with)?
Will it matter if these wires are stranded or straight cat6?
I have my walls open right now as I'm putting an addition onto my house so I just want to make sure I have all of the correct wires in place, and run conduit to major areas in case I need a new wire.
Will it matter if these wires are stranded or straight cat6?
I have my walls open right now as I'm putting an addition onto my house so I just want to make sure I have all of the correct wires in place, and run conduit to major areas in case I need a new wire.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Work2Play said:
My personal experience has been that cat5e doesn't actually work at gigabit speeds past 100 feet. And I know you are going to say that it is because of improper separation from noise, but I can assure you that I have runs that are absolutely no where near any noise that still lose the gigabit speeds at about 100 ft. And I have never bought wire direct from China, it all came from Monoprice or Fry's (not to say that it might not have been made in China, but it is at least vouched for by descent US co's). I don't have one of those fancy ass testers that cost $2000, but I promise you that the wire is good and the terminators are proper. I even tried just stringing the wire across the floor with rj45 jacks on both ends, no keystone punch downs or anything.
But really my point is that there is no point in running anything but cat6. The price increase is nominal, it's the labor that kills you, so no sense in going cheap on the wire since the labor is the same either way. And if down the road you need gigabit for some video application or something and your 5e wire craps out on you. .. man are you going to be pissed for not spending the extra couple bucks per run that the cat6 would have cost. I haven't ever used ACT6a, but the 6 wire I just put in my office 6 months ago which is 23 gauge isn't appreciably fatter than 5e wire, but I never ran any of it conduit except the last 10 feet going down the wall to the wall box (and at most only 3 wires would go down that).
And yeah, I agree, you probably will barely ever need gigabit in the near future and 10g. .. well who knows when. But with 4d TV on the horizon, maybe it will come to pass that the bandwidth is needed. And it would be nice to be able to transfer big huge movie files across your home network in seconds rather than 10 minutes.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
sloav said:
You want to use solid wire. The stranded wire is more flexible and is good for use between your device and the wall jack, not for in wall use. You don't want to try to terminate stranded wire. Not that it can't totally be done, it just is harder and more prone to failure, which will frustrate you because you won't know exactly where the failure is until you redo it by the old trial and error method.
The thermostat wire goes direct from thermostat to the unit. I am not aware of any hvac units that would do otherwise. If your thermostat has ethernet as well, then use the cat6 from that back to your router/switch. That would be carrying IP traffic, not HVAC data traffic. Most HVAC units are still using simple powered strands to control the units. In other words, they have relays that simply connect the 24vac source to whatever needs turning on (fan/compressor/furnace). Only the top of the line stuff uses data between the thermostat and the unit, and those are not using IP, but rather rs485 or some other similar technology. And those units are still designed to work over thermostat wire.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
For thermostats, the ones that are controlled by RS232 like the HAI and AprilAire and RCS - they use normal thermostat wire to the HVAC unit (make sure you have enough conductors - I'd run the 8-conductor just for good measure) and they use a separate CatX cable from the thermostat to the automation controller.
And Lou - I'm definitely curious about your experience... but I have personally run gigabit cisco trunk ports over Cat5 (not e) at about 100', and I've most definitely run gigabit up to the full 330' on 5e, occasionally even on POE runs. In fact, I just installed one last week that's 300' and carrying passive POE and running gigabit; this was outdoors up a tower and underground up into a cellular pre-fab building. ** I actually just jumped over to wikipedia to double check, and it says 1000Base-T will do 328' on Cat5 (not e) or better. I actually have one powered gigabit link going 700' with an active repeater in the middle.
That does help enforce the point that proper termination and separation is key. Using quality cable, making sure it does not run in too close proximity to A/C, making sure it's not pinched by zip-ties, etc - are all really important. Even those little RJ45 ends are different for solid vs. stranded and cat5 vs 6 vs 6a. If you're seeing drops on 5e @ 100+ ft, something is definitely wrong. I do have a couple of those $2K testers - if you lived closer I'd offer to come help troubleshoot! I'd also try a different switch - I've had great luck with the Netgear ProSafe Plus switches (GS108, etc). Some support vlan's and QoS so I've used them in a cisco environment where I needed a cheap endpoint that would respect the network VLAN's and they work great.
And Lou - I'm definitely curious about your experience... but I have personally run gigabit cisco trunk ports over Cat5 (not e) at about 100', and I've most definitely run gigabit up to the full 330' on 5e, occasionally even on POE runs. In fact, I just installed one last week that's 300' and carrying passive POE and running gigabit; this was outdoors up a tower and underground up into a cellular pre-fab building. ** I actually just jumped over to wikipedia to double check, and it says 1000Base-T will do 328' on Cat5 (not e) or better. I actually have one powered gigabit link going 700' with an active repeater in the middle.
That does help enforce the point that proper termination and separation is key. Using quality cable, making sure it does not run in too close proximity to A/C, making sure it's not pinched by zip-ties, etc - are all really important. Even those little RJ45 ends are different for solid vs. stranded and cat5 vs 6 vs 6a. If you're seeing drops on 5e @ 100+ ft, something is definitely wrong. I do have a couple of those $2K testers - if you lived closer I'd offer to come help troubleshoot! I'd also try a different switch - I've had great luck with the Netgear ProSafe Plus switches (GS108, etc). Some support vlan's and QoS so I've used them in a cisco environment where I needed a cheap endpoint that would respect the network VLAN's and they work great.
pete_c
Guru
Relating to the OP. I've always used solid for my CatXX cables. All of my 22/2 & 22/4 alarm cabling and 16/2 & 16/4 speaker cabling is stranded.
Personally my issues and relating to catXX terminations have been the colors of the cables. Some are easy to see and speed up terminations and other cables have been using almost a color tinted cable which makes it more difficult for me. I've had no issues with Cat5e and Gb in my home with a few cables running over 100 feet.
Personally my issues and relating to catXX terminations have been the colors of the cables. Some are easy to see and speed up terminations and other cables have been using almost a color tinted cable which makes it more difficult for me. I've had no issues with Cat5e and Gb in my home with a few cables running over 100 feet.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
work2play.
You have more experience than I of course. I personally ran my home 4 years ago, my old office 12 years ago, and my new office 6 months ago. So that along with also helping my buddy run his warehouse is my experience on any reasonable scale. All are big spaces with about 20-30 runs each. I have gigabit running at the office using the same rj connectors I used in my home (left overs) even though they are cat5e rated connectors and I put them on cat6 wire (I figured worse case scenario I cut them off and redo it). All of my runs work at gigabit speeds and several are over 100 feet. None of my longer runs at home work at gigabit using cat5e. I do have cat6 rated keystones at the office and cat5e ones at home. I do have a much better switch at my office than at home, so maybe that is part of the deal. The laptop that doesn't work at home on my 2 longer runs does work at the office. And one of my runs at home that does not work has 2 cat5e wires running the same course through the attic and down a conduit in the wall. They are absolutely miles away from anything that could interfere (you can walk the entire route from switch to the wall conduit). I tried reterminating both of those wires and still no luck. Ohmed them out, they are fine (not the fancy $2000 one unfortunately). So perhaps it is just that brand of Fry's electronic wire or perhaps it is my switch? But I do get gigabit at home on my shorter runs using the same wire and the same keystones and the same rj45's.
But anyway, I don't really care since I don't really need gigabit now and, because it is all in conduit/free running in the attic, it will only be a 15 minute job to pull new wire if ever I really do need gigabit.
I do wish you lived near by, I would certainly be a good friend and borrow all of your tools and return them with beer.
You have more experience than I of course. I personally ran my home 4 years ago, my old office 12 years ago, and my new office 6 months ago. So that along with also helping my buddy run his warehouse is my experience on any reasonable scale. All are big spaces with about 20-30 runs each. I have gigabit running at the office using the same rj connectors I used in my home (left overs) even though they are cat5e rated connectors and I put them on cat6 wire (I figured worse case scenario I cut them off and redo it). All of my runs work at gigabit speeds and several are over 100 feet. None of my longer runs at home work at gigabit using cat5e. I do have cat6 rated keystones at the office and cat5e ones at home. I do have a much better switch at my office than at home, so maybe that is part of the deal. The laptop that doesn't work at home on my 2 longer runs does work at the office. And one of my runs at home that does not work has 2 cat5e wires running the same course through the attic and down a conduit in the wall. They are absolutely miles away from anything that could interfere (you can walk the entire route from switch to the wall conduit). I tried reterminating both of those wires and still no luck. Ohmed them out, they are fine (not the fancy $2000 one unfortunately). So perhaps it is just that brand of Fry's electronic wire or perhaps it is my switch? But I do get gigabit at home on my shorter runs using the same wire and the same keystones and the same rj45's.
But anyway, I don't really care since I don't really need gigabit now and, because it is all in conduit/free running in the attic, it will only be a 15 minute job to pull new wire if ever I really do need gigabit.
I do wish you lived near by, I would certainly be a good friend and borrow all of your tools and return them with beer.
pete_c
Guru
Non relating to OP questions I did try stranded 12/14 gauge electrical cable with metal conduit pulls personally in my home.
I found it more difficult to run so "fell back" to solid 12/14 guage electrical wire. Terminating it in the fuse panel wasn't too big of a deal.
The terminations though in the gang boxes relating to switches and outlets were a pita to deal with; mostly because they are too flexible.
I found it more difficult to run so "fell back" to solid 12/14 guage electrical wire. Terminating it in the fuse panel wasn't too big of a deal.
The terminations though in the gang boxes relating to switches and outlets were a pita to deal with; mostly because they are too flexible.
