programmergeek
Active Member
We are doing a HAI system in a house and it is a requirement in Hoboken NJ that they have a 120v Fire system. Ahhhh, PIA. So I need a 120v fire system that is zoned that can trip zones on the HAI. Any sugestions.
120v fire system
- Thread starter programmergeek
- Start date
fabriziojoe
Active Member
I came across this statement which might help. I do not know who wrote it, but my building inspector bought into it.
Code everywhere in the US mandates "120V powered" smoke detectors with interconnected sounders. The fact is, four wire and two wire detectors set up properly are 120V powered from a dedicated circuit, through the panel power supply that has supervision, which is something that "regular" 120V detectors do not have. The panel provides substantial battery backup as well. The primary advantage of course is that the entire system can now be monitored, for property protection when the house is unoccupied, as well as the mandated life protection. The detectors have internal sounders, and through use of a reversing relay have the interconnected all-sounding feature.
michelkenny
Active Member
For some brands (i.e. Kidde), you can get a relay module that will connect to your existing 120V hardwired smoke detectors and will provide an alarm panel contact.
Anthony A.
Active Member
the silhouette is nice, unfortunately im looking for a combo unit with smoke and carbon monoxide. do you know of any other brands that have this that i can use a relay-type module to hookup to an OPII?
michelkenny
Active Member
Kidde also has combo smoke/co2, as well as a separate co2 relay that can be used in combination with the smoke relay. Would use up 2 zones on your panel.
BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
Like most things, its never as simple as it first seems.
First, its likely that the requirement is for 120V smokes which are interconnected. This means that when one goes off they all do. You can buy 12V panel smokes with sounders, they definitely cost much more than smokes without sounders.
Second, in some areas, they specify that ionization type sensors can't be connected to a MONITORED alarm panel. Most 120V interconnected smokes are usually ionization type alarms. There are two main types of fire sensors, ionization and photo-electric. Ionization types respond fast but sometimes have false alarms, photo-electric types are slower to respond, but they respond quicker. The reason for the monitored alarm requirement is because cities, with limited fire department budgets don't want ANY fire false alarms, so they sometimes require a photo-electric sensor on monitored alarm panels.
Third, if you are planning to have the 120V smokes trigger your panel, and you are planning to use a relay that you can buy, be careful there as well. If you fully read the instructions on these relays, you will find that they are not UL listed for connecting a 120V smoke to a monitored panel. They are actually designed to control ventilation fans and to close fire doors.
So while there are many issues here, usually the best thing to do is keep the 120V system separate from your panel. Otherwise its really up to you, the inspector, and your insurance company.
First, its likely that the requirement is for 120V smokes which are interconnected. This means that when one goes off they all do. You can buy 12V panel smokes with sounders, they definitely cost much more than smokes without sounders.
Second, in some areas, they specify that ionization type sensors can't be connected to a MONITORED alarm panel. Most 120V interconnected smokes are usually ionization type alarms. There are two main types of fire sensors, ionization and photo-electric. Ionization types respond fast but sometimes have false alarms, photo-electric types are slower to respond, but they respond quicker. The reason for the monitored alarm requirement is because cities, with limited fire department budgets don't want ANY fire false alarms, so they sometimes require a photo-electric sensor on monitored alarm panels.
Third, if you are planning to have the 120V smokes trigger your panel, and you are planning to use a relay that you can buy, be careful there as well. If you fully read the instructions on these relays, you will find that they are not UL listed for connecting a 120V smoke to a monitored panel. They are actually designed to control ventilation fans and to close fire doors.
So while there are many issues here, usually the best thing to do is keep the 120V system separate from your panel. Otherwise its really up to you, the inspector, and your insurance company.
piper_chuck
Member
I was facing a similar dilemma. After talking with the manager of the city inspection department, who seemed totally clueless about alarm systems, I decided it wasn't worth my time, and my builder's to try to convince him the system would satisfy code. So, I fell in line and went with the standard 120v smoke system. To supplement that I added monitored smokes and heat detectors in key areas around the house. This way I've met local code and will also have the house monitored if there's a fire while we're away.
That usually is the best solution, from what I have seen.
Another thing I didn't mention is this, say you sell your house to someone, and they don't have the skill or desire to maintain the alarm panel, maybe they don't replace the 12V lead acid battery. That means they have no smoke alarms. Its most likely for this reason that inspectors are not willing to allow a panel as a substitute for some 9-volt battery powered alarms. While it may be a great solution for the current owner, what about the next owner?
I built 3 properties in Hoboken so I know Inspector Falco all too well. Is this a single family or a condo?
In mutlifamiles they want 120V smokes in each unit interconnected within the unit only. If it is mutltifamily and you are renovating the whole building they will want low voltage smokes and pull stations in the halls tied into a control panel which is monitored. In two familes or smaller you can just use the 120v interconnected.
The idea is that if someone burns something in the oven they dont set off the house panel and roll the trucks. But if their is a real fire someone will either pull the pull stations or the smoke will get into the hall setting off the monitored units.
As others mention having the 120v units is because the next person might not want to pay for an alarm. That leaves you two opitions. Suppliment the 120v units with low voltage units or do a relay. If you decide to a relay you need to see how the HAI panel deals with false alarms. I have a single family outside of Hoboken hooked a relay up to a elk panel and I had concerns about what I can do if the smoke gets falsed. I talked a little about it here.
http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16568
At a minimum you want to see what you can do if the alarm is falsing, can you keep it from dialing out.
If you are doing a multifamily project that requires a monitored system we should talk more. He has very specific things he wants for the FACP for multifamiles.
In mutlifamiles they want 120V smokes in each unit interconnected within the unit only. If it is mutltifamily and you are renovating the whole building they will want low voltage smokes and pull stations in the halls tied into a control panel which is monitored. In two familes or smaller you can just use the 120v interconnected.
The idea is that if someone burns something in the oven they dont set off the house panel and roll the trucks. But if their is a real fire someone will either pull the pull stations or the smoke will get into the hall setting off the monitored units.
As others mention having the 120v units is because the next person might not want to pay for an alarm. That leaves you two opitions. Suppliment the 120v units with low voltage units or do a relay. If you decide to a relay you need to see how the HAI panel deals with false alarms. I have a single family outside of Hoboken hooked a relay up to a elk panel and I had concerns about what I can do if the smoke gets falsed. I talked a little about it here.
http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16568
At a minimum you want to see what you can do if the alarm is falsing, can you keep it from dialing out.
If you are doing a multifamily project that requires a monitored system we should talk more. He has very specific things he wants for the FACP for multifamiles.
programmergeek
Active Member
It was a two family brownstone that now is ggetting converted into a one family. IT sounds like running 2 systems is the best answer but I hate to put 2 detectors into the rooms, just looks silly and it is not my style but may be the best solution here.
There is no reason to put two detectors in each room, just alternate the sensors. Place the 120V sensors in the minimum locations as required by law, then place the other sensors in other rooms and locations the furthest from the 120V sensors, and in places like the attic where there are no 120V sensors.
I went through the same stuff here in Maryland.
My HAI panel IS 120v powered, and battery backed-up. Therefore the smokes are 120v and battery backed up too - since they are powered by the panel.
I have 13 fire zones. It all got the thumbs up from the fire marshal and the building inspector.
Of course, you can always get an a-hole, so your mileage may vary.
I will not allow a kludge job in my home. (2 smokes in every room). I would move first.
My HAI panel IS 120v powered, and battery backed-up. Therefore the smokes are 120v and battery backed up too - since they are powered by the panel.
I have 13 fire zones. It all got the thumbs up from the fire marshal and the building inspector.
Of course, you can always get an a-hole, so your mileage may vary.
I will not allow a kludge job in my home. (2 smokes in every room). I would move first.
