2nd Floor Laundry Protection Advice
- Thread starter PhillyTim
- Start date
apostolakisl
Senior Member
I think you are on the right track here.
Here is a picture of what happened to me when my HVAC guys didn't properly connect the condensate pipe to an air handler. The roof caved in in a guest bedroom.
I have now installed water sensors (GRI) near all air handlers, and in the basement utility room. Any water detection immediately shuts off the air handlers in the affected area, and sends me an alert.
In this picture a lot of priceless stuff was destroyed. Hand made martial art uniforms made by monks - things that could not be cleaned, or even dry-cleaned!
Really aggravating. Learn from my fail.
Oh, and downstairs, a toilet actually cracked in half last month. There was an inch of water in the den downstairs when I went to feed the Doberman. Water got into the walls and caused all sorts of damage, and mold. Really, install water sensors.
There has been one other water leak in the den in the past 5 years, I don't remember the reason, but that's a total of 3 water disasters in the last 8 years.
It's a good thing I had the foresight to run 3 10-pair extra cables to all parts of the house...
When I built my house I ran alarm cable to every single water location in the house. Every bathroom, sink, fridges, shower, toilet, washer, and so on. They all go back to the elk and I have something like 20 of the gri's around the house. Many of these are wired together since I really don't need to know exactly which one tripped.
I did not do the air handlers (though adding them would be a nothing job since they are in the attic, but they have float switches which shut them off. A float switch in the pan should be perfectly sufficient. . . but just like the gri, they need proper installation.
Sorry to hear of your loss.
Regarding GRI shut off valve . . . no experience with it. I have the Elk. It is impressive. Very solid, stainless steel, powerful. There is a video of it snapping a pencil in half somewhere out there. Mine is linked to the Elk (obviously) but in addition to water sensors tripping it, I have it set to shut down the house water 40 minutes after armed away. While I would prefer it to shut off immediately, my wife insists that she be able to leave the house after starting the washer or dishes.
Thanks. I called GRI about their WSV; it's a nylon valve. It's not much cheaper than the Elk, so I'm going to buy the Elk, and for now just set it up to shut off my water and alert the alarm panel (hopefully Alarm Relay will support a water sensor alarm). If at some point I buy an M1, I'll have the M1 shut off power to the washer, but a supply leak is my biggest concern--and the Elk WSV will obviously handle that.
So, if I have two 2600's in the laundry room, I need only one wire running from there to the WSV, correct? I read that the 2600 should be wired in parallel--but I'm thinking that just means you splice / tap the home run and run from that point to each sensor rather than connecting the sensors directly to one anther? My electrician thought parallel meant a seperate home run for each sensor--but based on comments above it doesn't sound like that's required.
Lou, I like the idea of shutting off the house water 40 minutes after the alarm is armed--I read another thread where you mentioned that, and I actually told my wife about that one. Of course that thread got me worried about water hammer and the fact that I have a hot water heater and no expansion tank. I'll have to talk to my plumber about those issues... He ran Pex to the laundry room, so I assume Pex doesn't have a water hammer issue.
Thanks all; I love this forum!
So, if I have two 2600's in the laundry room, I need only one wire running from there to the WSV, correct? I read that the 2600 should be wired in parallel--but I'm thinking that just means you splice / tap the home run and run from that point to each sensor rather than connecting the sensors directly to one anther? My electrician thought parallel meant a seperate home run for each sensor--but based on comments above it doesn't sound like that's required.
Lou, I like the idea of shutting off the house water 40 minutes after the alarm is armed--I read another thread where you mentioned that, and I actually told my wife about that one. Of course that thread got me worried about water hammer and the fact that I have a hot water heater and no expansion tank. I'll have to talk to my plumber about those issues... He ran Pex to the laundry room, so I assume Pex doesn't have a water hammer issue.
Thanks all; I love this forum!
apostolakisl
Senior Member
The 2600 is a normally closed circuit. So you would not run mutliple sensors in parrallel but rather in series (assuming you want to merge them onto a single alarm panel zone (or other similar dectector). In that way if any one of multiple sensors got wet, it would open the circuit. They also have a simpler model which is a normally open configuration. . .it wires in parallel.
Alarm Relay will receive water alarms and call you to tell you that water alarm xyz is alarming.
If you are going to get the big elk wsv then I would locate it at your main water feed for the house. It is true that there will be some extra water that drains out of the pipes after it shuts down, but I think the advantage of having one valve that can cover your whole house outweighs the small amount of extra water during a true leak. Besides that, you would need two of them if not at the main feed, one for hot and one for cold.
Shutting off the water is not a problem for hot water heaters unless you drain it. Myself, I have on demand heaters so it isn't an issue at all. But as long as you don't drain the tank down, it is fine. Draining the tank by accident is highly unlikely. The only caveat to that is that since you don't have an expansion tank you won't be able to get any pressure relief back to the city with the valve closed. Go ahead and ask your plumber about that.
Is your concern with water hammer when the main turns back on? The Elk turns on/off kind of slow so even if you let some water out of your pipes while it was off, when it turns on the water doesn't just come crashing in. If you set things up correctly, when the valve turns back on, there should be no flow since no one was home to use any water. If water does flow in, something is leaking, except for ice machine and RO filters. . . which should have very minimal draws if any when you aren't home.
Also, consider your sprinkler, make sure the sprinkler T's off before the wsv. You will want to run your sprinklers and have the wsv shut off at the same time.
ddennerline
Active Member
Why don’t you just show your wife a Basildane's picture. I am sure she would be much more supportive 
Also, there are several other posts from other people that have lost significant amounts of items.
If you watch Holmes on Holmes, he always moves the washer/dryer into the basement. I don't thing there is any fullproof way to protect your property without install a full-featured water alarm system (and this includes battery backup).
I believe the ElK-EZ cost would be around $1000. The WaterCop wireless is around $560.
There is one major problem with FloodStop products. If your water on your street is shutoff and then suddenly turned back on, the FloodStop valves will false alarm. Trust me it’s not pleasant to have to pull appliances, disconnect hoses, and reinstall.
Also, there are several other posts from other people that have lost significant amounts of items.If you watch Holmes on Holmes, he always moves the washer/dryer into the basement. I don't thing there is any fullproof way to protect your property without install a full-featured water alarm system (and this includes battery backup).
I believe the ElK-EZ cost would be around $1000. The WaterCop wireless is around $560.
There is one major problem with FloodStop products. If your water on your street is shutoff and then suddenly turned back on, the FloodStop valves will false alarm. Trust me it’s not pleasant to have to pull appliances, disconnect hoses, and reinstall.
Actually no. The ceiling collapse you see here would not be detected by the pan float switch. The condensate pipe became separated over a guest bedroom. The pan never had any water in it. All the water went to the ceiling over a bedroom and poured into the insulation, until the drywall gave out and everything came down.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Well I assume it's cause someone forgot the glue! Sounds like your AC installer needs to pay for that one. It's funny how things don't work when they aren't installed properly.
My plumbers decided to hook the condensate drain line on my heat pump hot water up to something that wasn't the condensate drain. . . and thus the condensate just ran out. Fortunately the pan caught it. And fortunately I'm the kind of guy who wanders around the attic of my office and notices this sort of thing or it would have just rusted out the bottom of the tank.
If you are interested I'll tell you exactly what went wrong.
Two sections of pipe were fitted together without glue, on purpose. This was supposed to be for ease of cleaning.
The actual air handler was sitting on the studs, but not bolted down.
Some guys were up there repairing an unrelated problem and pushed it just enough to loosen the connection, by accident. Vibration caused it to move by itself an inch or so.
Now the pipes became completely disconnected and that's when the big problem occurred.
First, I did make them pay for the repairs, and they tried to fight it and lost.
Second, I put in a 1 foot section of clear tubing connected with screw clamps to secure the pipe together. So now, it is tight, but can still be disconnected for cleaning, and it is flexible.
This is just one of hundreds of things that have "gone wrong" with this house.
I'm convinced you cannot get quality building in this country, for any price.
I have the outline for a book I'm going to write, one day, about this house. This is just one or two pages...
Recently I had another good one. This happened to a client, not me, but I think its worth saying.
I installed an HAI system in a newly constructed mcMansion.
The sprinkler crew was connecting pipes and soldered a massive copper pipe directly above the feed-through over the HAI box.
I don't know how they managed to do it, but molten solder poured through the tiny feed-through on the top of the locked cabinet, and went all over the HAI main board.
Destroyed the Omni Pro and expansion cards. I removed the excess solder from everything, but it was all fried. The system was only 1 week old.
I don't think I could have done it if I tried! The solder fell 4 feet into a 1/4 gap. Incredible, but true.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
I can't tell you how many times I have said that. It is usually when I am trying to pull a wire and it is stuck. I assume that if I had wanted the wire to catch with enough strength to lift a car . . . it would slip!
I hadn't heard of people leaving the drain lines unglued for cleaning. It is probably not a bad idea. .. but only the way you have it now . . . with hose clamps. Too many things move around with equipment that vibrates (even though yours was do to on-purpose movement .. I have seen a lot of things come apart with vibration. Even bolts torqued down with hundreds of foot pounds of torque can come loose. My backhoe for example wants the bolts that hold the cylinder glands in place specs out 1100 pounds of torque. Had to buy a special wrench for that one. . but back to the OP. . . washing machines are famous for vibrating connections loose).
I would not set up a water alarm system to shut off the power to the washer, if it's already shutting off the water. First, as already noted, modern front loaders don't hold much water. Second, if the drain hose falls off the back of the machine, it will run out anyway -- residential washers don't have drain valves; they relay on the top of the drain hose being above the water level to prevent siphoning. So shutting off the machine won't do any good for that case. Third, don't forget that the washer itself has supply water valves and they can leak too. But as long as the machine has power, if water starts to leak to the inside of the machine, it will sense this and pump it out.
I wonder how long it will be before washers start being equipped with built-in leak detection. We just bought a new Bosch dishwasher and it has this.
I wonder how long it will be before washers start being equipped with built-in leak detection. We just bought a new Bosch dishwasher and it has this.
Thanks all! I've purchased the WSV and two GRI 2600 sensors, but now I need power for the WSV. I've spoken to Elk, and can use their TRG1640 in combination wi P624 to power it, which would be nice since I can then have battery backup. However, I'm wondering if I can simply power it via my alarm panel? I have a Safewatch Pro 3000 (ADT version of the Vista 20P).
Someone above mentioned I might have a 12v power supply "sitting around," but I don't know it if I do (aside from the panel of course)!
Also, I'm going to follow the above advice and not worry about powering down the washer should the water sensors be tripped. I'm really trying to prevent damage from a supply line failure as I'm not as worried about a drain issue.
Thanks again!
Someone above mentioned I might have a 12v power supply "sitting around," but I don't know it if I do (aside from the panel of course)!
Also, I'm going to follow the above advice and not worry about powering down the washer should the water sensors be tripped. I'm really trying to prevent damage from a supply line failure as I'm not as worried about a drain issue.
Thanks again!
Teken
Member
Not sure how some of you process trouble shooting and faults avoidance . But, the following is how the system will work regardless of the scenarios involved.
1. High pressure line bursts: This is the most common problem reported by the insurance companies. In this scenario the washing machine is simply sitting there doing nothing. One or both lines fail and burst, this causes a catastrophic flooding issue.
In this case, the Flood Stop will immediately turn off the water supply. At the same instance, the Insteon Appliance Linc will turn off any power to the device. The Triggerlinc will send out a signal and the HA will immediately send a sms, e-mail, voice mail to all users and monitoring station.
No intervention on the part of the user, and zero damage to the washing machine .
2. Washing machine is operating: The presence of water has been detected. The Flood Stop will perform in the exact same fashion and turn off the water supply immediately. At the very same instant, the power will be terminated. There is zero chance in getting electrocuted or damaging the washing machine.
If anyone wants to find out what turning off the water supply will do to the washing machine, while under power. Please go ahead and let me know what the final outcome is.
I can assure you the final outcome won't be pretty for the machine, or for the user wallet.
Applying this simple configuration to your water detection is a win win scenario. There is zero risk, damage to life and property. Simply turning off the water supply with out even considering removing electricity in the presence of water is simply foolish and result in fire / death in the extreme case.
Teken . . .
