4WTA-B Smokes

Ximat

Member
Is it possible/adviseable/wise to have my 4WTA-B smokes on individual zones? If they are on individual zones can they still be wired to sound off at the same time if one zone triggered?

If this is possible, how could it be done?

If it is not possible, or adviseable, how should the smokes be run?


Thanks!

X
 
1. Yes, but each smoke will require a EOL power supervision relay.
2. Yes, but you will need a reversing relay in addition to above.
3. Depends on the panel and hardware as installed.
4. Personally, I think the gains don't justify the means and expense if tandem ring is needed. The wiring starts getting somewhat more complex with 2 relays, and then needing a means to reset the detectors, and another way to trigger the reversing relays.
 
If your purpose is to "know" specifically which smoke detector has alarmed, this does not necessarily mean that you need separate power lines to each one. It seems to me that you would need only one power run, one EOL relay at the end and one reversing relay at the front. Meanwhile you wire each detector initiating circuit back to its own zone, each with an EOL resistor in the loop. The EOL relay would be integrated with the last detector. I don't know if this passes muster with building code, but on purely technical grounds I don't see any issue.
 
Doing it that way is skirting the legal side, and supervision, if I'm understanding correctly, wouldn't really be accomplished, because for each IDC you would need a supervisiory relay to be installed/open on loss of power to each detector. By separating the power out, you'd only get a trouble if the IDC with the EOL relay installed lost power. Each detector would still need a supervisiory relay.
 
Dont know if this helps but I built a new house and home run all cables including the smokes. Had I dont it all over again I would have daisy chained. I dont have all my smokes working (Temporary Battery Smokes now) but here is a diagram I had someone help me with using the Elk system. Should you have any questions or ideas please feel free to ask.
 

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This doesn't meet code. Each circuit needs to annunciate it's own trouble condition and not a "general" trouble for a single smoke/zone, which doesn't address which circuit of 3 (in the example above) is generating the trouble condition.

If you only ran a single 4 conductor to each smoke, the best option would be to wire it as a 2 wire fire alarm as a continous loop, otherwise as independend zones/detectors/reversing relays/supervisiory relay for each smoke head.
 
This doesn't meet code. Each circuit needs to annunciate it's own trouble condition and not a "general" trouble for a single smoke/zone, which doesn't address which circuit of 3 (in the example above) is generating the trouble condition.

If you only ran a single 4 conductor to each smoke, the best option would be to wire it as a 2 wire fire alarm as a continous loop, otherwise as independend zones/detectors/reversing relays/supervisiory relay for each smoke head. If the hardware was already purchased, I'd sell it and do it right...life safety vs. not doing something correctly.
 
This doesn't meet code. Each circuit needs to annunciate it's own trouble condition and not a "general" trouble for a single smoke/zone, which doesn't address which circuit of 3 (in the example above) is generating the trouble condition.

If you only ran a single 4 conductor to each smoke, the best option would be to wire it as a 2 wire fire alarm as a continous loop, otherwise as independend zones/detectors/reversing relays/supervisiory relay for each smoke head. If the hardware was already purchased, I'd sell it and do it right...life safety vs. not doing something correctly.


How would I wire it as a single loop if everything was home runned? Would I need EOL on every smoke?
 
Dont know if this helps but I built a new house and home run all cables including the smokes. Had I dont it all over again I would have daisy chained. I dont have all my smokes working (Temporary Battery Smokes now) but here is a diagram I had someone help me with using the Elk system. Should you have any questions or ideas please feel free to ask.

2Blackbelt:

That is exactly the type of drawing/markup I need!

From reading the rest of the posts though I don't think it is a favoured method.

DEL: How should I proceed with installing my smokes on my Elk M1G? I would like to have them on seperate zones, but if it is not necesary then I wont do it.


Thank you!
X
 
This doesn't meet code. Each circuit needs to annunciate it's own trouble condition and not a "general" trouble for a single smoke/zone, which doesn't address which circuit of 3 (in the example above) is generating the trouble condition.

If you only ran a single 4 conductor to each smoke, the best option would be to wire it as a 2 wire fire alarm as a continous loop, otherwise as independend zones/detectors/reversing relays/supervisiory relay for each smoke head.

If the third detector was supervised the same as the first 2 and the fire power was supervised separately on its own zone then wouldnt it meet code? Its just a slight tweak to the wiring diagram. UL defines a circuit as a pair of wires with the power being the pair supervised by the EOL Relay and I believe that meets NFPA 72.

It is the same for an SLC circuit where you have additional power for say a duct detector or Convertional Zone Module and you supervise the power separately then the detector which is supervised via the SLC Controller board.
 
so what is the recommendations for wiring these detectors to the Elk? All of my wires were home run and I have 16 detectors. I'm open for suggestions.
 
If the third detector was supervised the same as the first 2 and the fire power was supervised separately on its own zone then wouldnt it meet code? Its just a slight tweak to the wiring diagram. UL defines a circuit as a pair of wires with the power being the pair supervised by the EOL Relay and I believe that meets NFPA 72.

It is the same for an SLC circuit where you have additional power for say a duct detector or Convertional Zone Module and you supervise the power separately then the detector which is supervised via the SLC Controller board.

I'd have to get 72 out to make a specific citation, but the trouble condition does not annunciate for the affected circuit/device. The schematic posted generates a trouble condition indicating the circuit with the EOL relay installed having the issue, even though it could be anywhere else.

A SLC with it's associated hardware and installation methods is an entirely different beast.

With that many smokes, if absolute necessity to know what triggered the alarm, given the amount of hardware involved, I'd consider a small 25 point addressable panel for fire alarm. Barring that, I'd wire as 2 wire circuits with logical zones/groups of detectors, then if using System Sensor I3's, I'd use a 2w-MOD2, a RRS-MOD and then, instead of using 16 zones, figuring this is a normal 2 story house, at most, you'd have say, 4-5 zones of detectors? Using the devices listed, then I'd wire a zone for the maintenance signal.

IMHO, it simplifies the wiring, uses less aux power to run, uses less components to properly wire and supervise, and give you a few other perks/benefits...and in my case, factoring in 16 smokes, additional power supply/battery sizing concerns, and 16 EOL relays....it adds up to be a cheaper solution going the route using the hardware I threw out there.

 
Del how does my slight change not make it comply? Each detector would be on a separate zone and if their is a fault in the wiring it would cause a trouble on that zone. The SVAUX would be supervised as well on its own zone (its called a monitor zone in the industry). If their is an alarm you know exactly which detector went into alarm by the keypad and the LED on the detector).

As far as an SLC being a different beast its not. Its the same basic concept of supervision of SVAUX used to provide 24v aux power to duct detectors and convententional zone modules and other devices needing more power than the SLC loop can provide. Its described as a method in UL Listed FACP installation instructions as a method to comply with NFPA 72 supervision requirements. You should be familiar with Hocheki SLC devices and other mfg equipment that require these methods.

This is basic 101 wiring methods for a Pro. There is also more than one way to skin a cat though The poster with the original diagram was very close. He had the right idea just was a little off on the implementation. In theroy his system would show a trouble he just would not know if zone 3 trouble was the zone or the SVAUX power.

One thing to keep in mind....... Meeting code does not insure safety. It means you know how to meet someones interpretation of the rules. That interpretation by an AHJ is no assurance of safety and its up to the installer to reach the balance of safety and meeting AHJ requirements (as insane as they may be sometimes).
 
I guess my question now is if I wire the 4wtba smokes as a 2wtba and zone in a group of four sokes per zone would I use the EOL used for the 4wtba or the 2wtba EOL relays? Still trying to wrap my brain on how to wire these since they are home runned and i already have the 16 detectors. I am also using the P412 for the power. Also unsure on the rss-mod the proper connections. On my diagram would the Rss-Mod be wired the same way?
 
Without getting into a flame war and arguing how it should be done to get it "proper" with various methods and hardware that don't exist in this case....

Based on the information you have a homerun (4/18) going to each detector.

The most logical and straightforward way IMO, would be to provide an power supervision relay for each detector, then connect the reversing relay to the power leads of the feeds, with the normal current provided via the panel, with the reversed current being provided by the aux supply. (figure 4 of the RRS module instructions)

You would use a standard panel 2.2K EOLR for each smoke detector. The 820 ohm would not be used at all in your scenario.
 
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