4WTA-B Smokes

[Ximat]

I certainly didn't intend for this thread to go this direction!

I found this drawing and am not sure if it is applicable to my setup...

Would this work with an M1 Gold allowing you to put 4WTA-B's on multiple zones?

If so...
What is the initiating device circuit?
What is the Alarm Relay?
Why is the Aux Power, and the Detector power seperate? How would my ELk-PD9 play into this?

Thanks!
X

 

[patentesq]

Here is what I plan to do:

 

[patentesq]

Can't figure out how to post the schematic thumbnail. Oh well. Sorry.

 

[patentesq]

Here is what I plan to do. Any comments?

Also, instead of using the C-Form Relay (Output 3), I will likely use an NAC Power Extender (Altronix AL1002ULADA) and tie the purple wire from the RRS-MOD directly to the red/positive wire coming from the NAC output. If anyone has any experience with that alternate configuration, I would appreciate any comments you might have.

 

[Del91574]

You do not need an EOLR for a reversing relay, as shown in the schematic you posted. Also, the setup is missing a common negative, which will cause issues. Also, once you start the tandem ring, you're going to have all your fire zones go into trouble, but it's the nature of the beast and 4 wire smokes being used in this case.

In the case of the NAC extender, you're introducing a whole other dynamic that would need to be addressed and honestly, is going to complicate your install.

I don't think you're gaining what you think you are by using that supply and logic board, unless you're going to be tripping a NAC and need syncronization.

If you're choosing that supply based on size alone, I believe there are better options. If you're choosing it for the sole purpose of powering up the smokes, then if you're drawing 10A, I'd look at a different panel and method to do your fire alarm. If you're using it only because of the "sync" then it's the wrong supply for this application.

 

[Ximat]

I think my topic got hijacked here.

DEL, what are your thoughts on the schematic I posted and how it would work with an M1?


Thanks!

X

 

[hagak]

Ok this topic has me curious. Do all 4-wire smokes with sounders work like this. Where if one smoke in the chain is triggered it will cause all the smokes wired to it to also sound? Reason I ask is I have GE 449CST smokes and currently have them on 2 separate zones each with there own EOLR. However it would not be that difficult to re-wire them to be on the same zone if I have the benefit of getting them both to trigger the sounder if one is tripped. Reason they are on there own zone was it was just easier to wire that way and I had plenty of zones available.

 

[Del91574]

Ximat, that would work fine, just running 2 feeds through the reversing relay. 2 separate zones/supervisiories, no foul.

Hagak, the 449CST's will sound on a reverse polarity, however you would need to provide a way on your own to facilitate the temporal 3 sound pulse. In your case, without knowing the panel, the easiest way would be to use a RRS instead of GE's reversing relay, because GE's would need the temporal 3 pulse in addition to everything else.

 

[hagak]

Ximat, that would work fine, just running 2 feeds through the reversing relay. 2 separate zones/supervisiories, no foul.

Hagak, the 449CST's will sound on a reverse polarity, however you would need to provide a way on your own to facilitate the temporal 3 sound pulse. In your case, without knowing the panel, the easiest way would be to use a RRS instead of GE's reversing relay, because GE's would need the temporal 3 pulse in addition to everything else.

The panel is the Elk M1G, I do not think it provide a reverse polarity since the board I believe uses a common ground for all connections. And the installation manual only mentions the SAUX for powering 4-wire smokes and its purpose is to provide switched power to reset the smoke alarm.

 

[patentesq]

DEL, thanks for your comments. Yes,I will use NAC for synchronization purposes. I also want to put each smoke on a separate zone and yet have them all go into alarm as soon as one of them is triggered. I don't like the idea of only the smokes in one zone (like "upstairs bedrooms") going off, because if there is a fire in, say, the basement while folks are sleeping, I want all of the smokes from every zone to go off at the same time. This will provide greater evac time. I am also going with the NAC, because I also want other things to happen (which are beyond the scope of this thread) like closing skylights, turning off HVAC and fans, etc. Good catch on the common negative and much of it I don't want the M1 to be weak link (building in redundancy). The resister was in there from an earlier plan, but I'll remove it.

Ximat, I'm not sure why you concluded that "your" thread was hijacked. This made me laugh, because I had actually provided the schematics for YOU! Oh well. Good luck with your project.

 

[Del91574]

Hagak, the easiest way for you to accomplish this would to add the RRS-MOD to the panel/smokes, then use that to provide the tandem ring and temporal-3. The RRS would be powered off the SAUX for normal fire, then the reversed power would be from the panel's VAUX or a separate supply.

Patentesq- I would ditch that supply in particular, it's the incorrect product for what I believe you are attempting to do with additional hardware. The SYNC is used for strobes only, not for a tandem ring. You need a reversing relay to accomplish your tandem ring, and if you have multiple zones of fire, you need to either run them all through the same reversing relay or via multiple relays with a common trigger.

I think something like an Altronix AL600ULACMCB would accomplish what you want to do a heck of a lot easier, since with a single fire dropout from the panel, you can control multiple powered circuits if you select then within this style of supply and determine which one(s) have a fire dropout.

I can't see you needing 10A for a normal project, especially if you run it or your smokes @ 24V, but if you do, you could use an AL1024ULACMCB. The top section of the logic board would either simply need a shorting jumper for each output, or if you wanted to control the output itself, you would connect your dry contact to the logic board's input. Also, be sure you pay attention to the battery sizes listed...big item of contention once you start moving to supplies of these sizes.

With both of the supplies I listed, don't confuse what it mentions about reversing polarity of the input being able to cause a reverse polarity event for fire alarm tandem ring....it won't.

 

[patentesq]

Thanks, DEL. I reviewed the install manuals for the devices you mentioned, and they are pretty slick! I was going to run everything with a Maximal55EE and use Elk to open a bunch of relays, etc. and have only smokes, CO, natural gas, and strobes/horns at 24VDC (everthing elso on 12VDC). The big power guzzlers are the door strikes, it seems. I haven't selected which door strikes to use, but I want something so that the fire department doesn't have to take an axe to my front door in the event of a fire! (door will already be unlocked), I don't want to tie down this thread with the Altronix stuff, but I am gonna rethink things (and will likely start a new thread once my job-related work calms down a bit (likely not for another month). I am taking my time, because I heard that Elk is coming out with a new M1XSP that will provide better interface with Z-Wave (I'm big into that). As for the sound, I plan to have the 85 db on-board sound on the 4WTA-B wake all the pumpkins up in the event of a fire, but I will use the horns on the 4-wire Strobe/Horn combo scare the bejeezish out of burglars!

Ximat, I apologize for engaging with DEL here, but he is a true professional and we are blessed by his participation on this forum. We all benefit enormously from that. But I want to steer this discussion back to your inquiry. In your schematic, you use a 1000 Ohm resister on your schematic. Shouldn't that be 2200 Ohm to be sure that the voltage drop is right? Or is this the spec on your Omni controller?.

 

[Del91574]

Patentesq- If you only have a couple of strikes, then I'd suggest getting a separate 24V supply for them and run them at that voltage, not to mention it would need a smaller supply for both applications. You would not need a backup battery for a strike as long as it's fail-secure, and your handleset is always locked on the outside...with an appropriate key either on your keyring or in a lockbox outside, in the event of a power loss or failure. I wouldn't recommend a maglock for any security purpose on a residence, with the exception of possibly a gate outside.

As far as the fire dept. goes, the best option would be to discuss placing a Knox Box on the side of the house. We have a few municipalites that actually require them on any residental fire alarm system that is monitored.