A freeze-safe outdoor sink faucet

[beelzerob]

We're laying some water pipe down in the back yard. One pipe goes to a winter-safe outdoor house bib. Basically, the handle on the top opens a valve that's on the bottom of the stick, which is buried down 3 ft. And when you close the valve, it causes all of the water in the vertical shaft to drain back down out the bottom into a little sump...those no water is left above ground, which is why it's freeze-safe.

However...one of our other desires is for a little sink on our deck. What I'm trying to figure is how to do the same thing with that, but with a normal faucet. My options seem to be:

1) Just remember every year before the first serious freeze to close the supply valve and manually drain the line....somehow.
2) Use the same spigot yard-faucet contraption instead of a normal sink faucet.
3) Somehow use some controlled water valves and a thermometer to automatically drain the line when the temperature gets close to freezing.


The first scenario is the easiest, but also just as likely to majorly fail...should I find myself in vacation when a freeze unexpectedly hits the area. Then I'd have a burst water pipe while away.

The second was nixed by the wife, as she doesn't want a big metal valve and hosebib thing sticking up out of our deck, and I agree. Besides, we don't know exactly where the sink is going to go yet, so I can't put it in permanently.

The last one is too baffling for me at this point. I'm trying to think of what combination of valves I could use. The only scenario I can think of is if I had a valve on the supply side, and then a valve at the bottom of the vertical section of pipe to the faucet, then I could turn off the supply valve, and then open the "drain" valve, and that would allow the water in the vertical section of pipe to drain out. The main thing I don't like about this is that it means a valve would have to be buried 3-ft down. That's certainly a failure point. I don't think I could even leave a valve access cover on it, as then it wouldn't be insulated for the winter and I'd once again have a freeze potential.

Anyone have any suggestions on a better way to make an outdoor sink faucet freeze-proof?

 

[Digger]

We're laying some water pipe down in the back yard. One pipe goes to a winter-safe outdoor house bib. Basically, the handle on the top opens a valve that's on the bottom of the stick, which is buried down 3 ft. And when you close the valve, it causes all of the water in the vertical shaft to drain back down out the bottom into a little sump...those no water is left above ground, which is why it's freeze-safe.

However...one of our other desires is for a little sink on our deck. What I'm trying to figure is how to do the same thing with that, but with a normal faucet. My options seem to be:

1) Just remember every year before the first serious freeze to close the supply valve and manually drain the line....somehow.
2) Use the same spigot yard-faucet contraption instead of a normal sink faucet.
3) Somehow use some controlled water valves and a thermometer to automatically drain the line when the temperature gets close to freezing.


The first scenario is the easiest, but also just as likely to majorly fail...should I find myself in vacation when a freeze unexpectedly hits the area. Then I'd have a burst water pipe while away.

The second was nixed by the wife, as she doesn't want a big metal valve and hosebib thing sticking up out of our deck, and I agree. Besides, we don't know exactly where the sink is going to go yet, so I can't put it in permanently.

The last one is too baffling for me at this point. I'm trying to think of what combination of valves I could use. The only scenario I can think of is if I had a valve on the supply side, and then a valve at the bottom of the vertical section of pipe to the faucet, then I could turn off the supply valve, and then open the "drain" valve, and that would allow the water in the vertical section of pipe to drain out. The main thing I don't like about this is that it means a valve would have to be buried 3-ft down. That's certainly a failure point. I don't think I could even leave a valve access cover on it, as then it wouldn't be insulated for the winter and I'd once again have a freeze potential.

Anyone have any suggestions on a better way to make an outdoor sink faucet freeze-proof?

Use two electric vlaves controlled by automation when it is near freezing. Put the first in series with the faucet feed as it leaves teh house. Shut it off when it gets cold. Then put the second as a T-tap burried in a sump and open it 1 minute after the first valve closes and it allows the water to drain into the sump from the T-tap.

 

[beelzerob]

That sounds like exactly what I wanted to do, but I think it's the "t-tap" valve I've never heard of. Is that basically a valve controller that sits above ground to control a valve belowground? Will that work with my rain8net valve controller?

Oh wait, I see..you're just talking a regular valve, but at a "t" plumbing junction on the bottom of the vertical stem. Ya, I had the idea, and I like it...but I don't like the idea of burying a valve. I wonder if I put a valve down there, and then a valve access cover so I could still access it...wouldn't that still allow freezing temperatures to get down there where the water is? Or maybe I should insulate inside the valve access area?

 

[wuench]

That sounds like exactly what I wanted to do, but I think it's the "t-tap" valve I've never heard of. Is that basically a valve controller that sits above ground to control a valve belowground? Will that work with my rain8net valve controller?

Oh wait, I see..you're just talking a regular valve, but at a "t" plumbing junction on the bottom of the vertical stem. Ya, I had the idea, and I like it...but I don't like the idea of burying a valve. I wonder if I put a valve down there, and then a valve access cover so I could still access it...wouldn't that still allow freezing temperatures to get down there where the water is? Or maybe I should insulate inside the valve access area?

Or you could use heat tape.

 

[DavidL]

Use the frost free faucet to feed a standard faucet. Keep the frost free one on all summer, and just shut it in the late fall. These frost free faucets typically have a garden hose thread on it. Home depot sells the threaded adapter to whatever type pipe you want to route.

You can also put a air fitting on the line and blow it out late fall. The key being to remember.

This is what I have sending water to my barn:
water supply (in house) > in line valve > air fitting T > pipe > faucet

I automated the wintererizing of my sprinkler system using an air solenoid and MainLobby to coordinate the valve actions. Rain8Net relays to switch the electricity to the various water / air valve.

 

[beelzerob]

Well, I don't have any air supplies to blow anything out. And heat tape would work, but unless I put a controlled outlet, wouldn't that be 24-7? Or is the power supply temp controlled usually?

Otherwise, I was thinking something like this:

The only concern I have is that outside valve...how do I protect it from freezing, while still having access to it. If I put a valve cover over it and packed it full of insulation, do you think that'd be enough? I'm in PA, not AK...but I'm sure we'll have a week of 0 deg weather at some point in my life.

 

[DavidL]

Depending if you have "fall" from the interiour valve to the sump (with no low spots), insulating the outside valve is not good enough if there isn't a heat source nearby. The insulation only keeps the heat in. If there is no heat source, it freezes on both sides of the insulation.

Buy a small compressor. Useful for lots of tasks. Using air, you don't have to worry about fall or low spots as the air pushes out the water in the line anyway.

Well, I don't have any air supplies to blow anything out. And heat tape would work, but unless I put a controlled outlet, wouldn't that be 24-7? Or is the power supply temp controlled usually?

Otherwise, I was thinking something like this:

The only concern I have is that outside valve...how do I protect it from freezing, while still having access to it. If I put a valve cover over it and packed it full of insulation, do you think that'd be enough? I'm in PA, not AK...but I'm sure we'll have a week of 0 deg weather at some point in my life.

 

[Digger]

Well, I don't have any air supplies to blow anything out. And heat tape would work, but unless I put a controlled outlet, wouldn't that be 24-7? Or is the power supply temp controlled usually?

Otherwise, I was thinking something like this:

The only concern I have is that outside valve...how do I protect it from freezing, while still having access to it. If I put a valve cover over it and packed it full of insulation, do you think that'd be enough? I'm in PA, not AK...but I'm sure we'll have a week of 0 deg weather at some point in my life.

Another option is if the pitch to the outside sink is uphil you could drain it back into an inside drain and keep both valaves in the house. Just an idea.

 

[beelzerob]

Well, I'm not concerned about the water draining..it'll definitely do that, just because of the water pressure in the vertical section. I can put a very small downward slope on the pipe from where it exits the foundation so that the entire length will drain.

I just realized...I don't need to worry about the pipe at the outside valve from freezing....because the whole point of this is to drain that section of pipe anyway. So, once the outside valve is opened, the entire outside section of pipe will be drained.

so like that.

So in that case, the only concern is just having access to the valve if I need it...which I could accomplish with a tall enough valve access box.

digger, that's actually a great idea...I was wondering how I'd use a single pipe as an inlet and outlet, and that'd be a perfect way. I wouldn't even have to slope it because the vertical section of water would be more than enough pressure to drain back.

the only problem I have is there are no drain pipes near where this exits the house. If I were desperate, I could actually empty it to a bucket or barrel in the basement, and put a water sensor there to alert me it needed to be emptied (this is probably only going to happen ocne a season)...but that opens the possibility of the worst case scenario, which is that both valves somehow end up open and the water runs freely into the basement. That'd be worse than it freeze/breaking outside.

I could run the inside leg to a drain pipe, but I'd either have to follow around the wall for a good length, or go across the floor, which I really don't want to do. It'd be in my closed-off wiring area, but still.

 

[beelzerob]

Well, after some discussion, we decided on the approach digger suggested.

for now, I'll just include manual valves and we'll just have to remember (or be reminded via ha, of course) to drain it each season. But if I want to, then I can still include the automatic valves and run drain line to an interior drain pipe, so no risk of flooding. But the main reason to choose this method is that it allows me to finish the pipe outside today while I have the excavator, and then finish the inside portion later, instead of having to do the valve and wire and all that today before reburying. Always put off until tomorrow what you could have done today...

Thanks for the helps all!

 

[BrettS]

Tips for saving water:

Well that was completely random and a bizzare way to advertise.

 

[electron]

I have removed the offending post.