About to order, need some last minute advice.

N

N49atv

Active Member
So I ended up buying instead of building (baby on the way). I've got my switch count etc. I'm just curious what to do when it comes to couplers/repeaters.

I have a single 200A panel. 1830sqft bungalow up, 1470sqft down. Panel fairly central.

I'd say my noisy loads are...
- Dual oven/microwave combo (40A 240V)
- induction cook top (50A 240v)
- dryer
- various fans (range hood is 600cfm)

Will I need to be overly concerned with noisy loads? Should I just spend the extra 260 on a repeater? Would I need multiple couplers to control the noise?

Thanks
 
Are you asking about UPB, Z-Wave, X-10?  We have no idea.  I wouldn't really worry much until something doesn't work reliably.  If you are talking about UPB, try to get Gen 2 or greater switched because they have better noise resistance and they work better with a repeater, should you ever require one. You may not.
 
I'm going OPII and was going to just get HAI switches. I get them at a better price than I can get find online for CDN retailers. Wasn't sure how status feedback works with non HAI HLC switches.
 
I have an Omni Pro II and use all Simply Automated UPB switches. I have more than 60 installed.
SA is a hybrid of gen 1 and 2. They are more sensitive to accept links because they are not snubbed down like gen 2 "noise immune" devices, but they have all the other firmware improvements of gen 2.

As long as you follow the HLC programming allocation of links and units, status tracking works perfectly
The panel has no idea who manufactured the switches.
 
So is it better to go SA? My price on hai is just a few dollars higher than I can get SA for online. I just want the system to work. I'm not that big of a home.
 
The Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 is important if you have any plans to use a repeater. I have Simply Automated switches also which work fine, but if you add a repeater, the switches can't communicate back to the panel.  You also can't use UpStart to program them since UpStart can't "see" the switches.  Web Mountain takes Simply Automated switches and upgrades the firmware to Gen II, so that could be an option as well.  HAI switches are Gen II, so they work fine with a repeater. 
 
Now I'm not saying you will ever need a repeater, and my setup works fine without one, although I do have three phase couplers.  BUT if you ever want to add one, Gen II switches are compatible, Gen I switches are not.  There is lots of debate over Gen I vs. Gen II vs. Gen III.  Just check around and you'll find lots. 
 
Howdy N49atv,
 
I have a 1950 sqft house and the street side transformer is about 60feet from my (200A) breaker panel. Signals on one phase leave the house and are inverted and sent back into the house from the street side transformer.  I have no phase coupler and have never had an issue with signal levels.  UPStart provides a very useful tool called a Network Comm test.  As long as signal levels are 13 or higher with 0 noise there should be no problem.  Point is a repeater is probably over kill.  One phase coupler in the main panel should do it.
 
Regarding noise, switching power supplies of frequencies around 50 KHz and lower can have adverse affects on UPB/HLC.  Your induction cook top stove may fall into this category.  From what I've read most induction cook tops have much higher frequencies 80 KHz and up, most all switchers are now at 100 KHz and up.  The higher the frequency the smaller the coils need to transfer the power (i.e. less expensive to make).  You can easily check if there is noise with UPStart and a UPB Computer Interface Module, before you invest a lot in lighting controls.  If the cook top turns out to be a significant noise source it can be filtered for a fraction of the cost of a repeater, plus a repeater does not solve noise issues; in some cases (small noise) it may help a little.
 
The Omni Panel is a great choice and we help people every day make UPB do all it can do with the Omni controller.
 
N49atv said:
What's the best way to deal with noise?
Click to expand...
 
First, you have to track down the source of the noise, which often  can be done by unplugging things one at a time (or turning off circuit breakers) until the problem goes away.  A signal strength meter is also helpful.  Once you know the source of the noise, you have to decide how to fix it.  The best solution is usually to install a noise filter between the noisy device and the power line.   Other times you can overcome the noise with a repeater or signal booster, but that is just masking the problem without fixing it.
 
Yeah. I'd rather install a filter for sure. Masking a problem doesn't help. Because other noise that builds over the years, or the load getting worse, can lead to flaky and frustrating times. Which in the end you will end up fixing it later.
 
Now. Another issue I'm curious about is GFCI plugs. My wife always panics she left the straightener on. I can't seem to find a good solution to this. As a relay will cut power, but force her to go to a phone/screen to reset her plug.

So best thing I can think of, Is to smash plug box out, install a double, and install
A 15A relay switch next to it in a double gang.

Any other way? Straightener is big issue (65w) but hair dryer will
Also run in there, so 12A UPB plug is outta the question. And it wouldn't be gfci anyway
 
All bedroom and bath outlets are required to be GFCI or AFCI.
An AFCI breaker in the box takes care of that.
Otherwise, an outlet, UPB or standard, must be downstream of a GFCI outlet.

If you want a UPB controlled outlet in the bath, install an old work double gang box and wire the UPB outlet down stream of the GFCI.

You can set up a link so the outlet turns on with the bath light, and turns off when you turn out the light.
So even if you have another rule that turns off the outlet when you set the alarm and leave (for safety), you'll still automatically turn the outlet back on when you turn on the bath light.

12A is 1440W

You may be able to open up the outlet and substitute in a higher amperage relay.
Most bath circuits are only 15A so they are rated for 12A continuous anyway.
 
You could install an in-wall timer like this one next to the GFCI outlet and have the timer turn off the outlet.  Not quite as elegant as using UPB, but just requires a simple tap to enable the outlet and eliminates the complexity of having UPB devices deciding when to turn things on and off.   If you pick a different timer, just make sure it can handle the load of a hair dryer or straightener.
 
I was thinking of putting the UPB switch, upstream of the GFCI. Which would toggle power to the GFCI. Which we could even mount in basement, and toggle it with bath light. My current wiring in the bathroom is stupid.

They ran to the switch box. Ran power to toilet fan and light via switch (in small room), ran direct to plug, then back to switch box. Then ran fan, and main lights/shower light on the downstream side of the GFCI. Reason is fan and shower light have to be GFCI protected. So now my wife tripped GFCI with her old hair straightener. And she is left in the dark.

I'm gonna re-run power to each bathroom, to the switch box. Fed from GFCI breaker. Then I will re wire so the plug is on its own existing 15A. Then the GFCI breaker will feed both fans, and both sets of lights. At least them she can run her hair dryer. Both bathrooms are on same 15A. So stupid total load, 2x 5 lamp light bars (with 100W lamps), one shower light (is guess 60W) 3 bath fans (all .5 amp) and a tub light (100w), toilet light (2x100), and WIC light (2x100w).

I think it will be hard enough not to trip breaker if I'm showering and she is doing hair makeup (600w lights, .5A ex. fan) and hair dryer. Let alone anyone in other bathroom. Gonna split it, so of its girls night out, we can run 2 hair dryers. So I need 2 new circuits. Put all lights on one, and plugs on their own. A little overkill, but better than hearing about it, from drinking women....
 
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