Anything besides a neutral wire needed for "smart" light switches?

[Del91574]

I'd have to look at the NEC, but I don't recall any requirements for a neutral in every box....that would make a lot of switchlegs and 3/4 ways non-compliant.
 
Just took a look, the big variable is what code cycle is enforced in your area, and the revision was made in the 2011 edition, which isn't adopted in a lot of areas due to the code cycle lifespan (3 years). There's also a ton of exceptions to requiring a neutral in every box in addition to creative interpretations of the exceptions that can be used to negate the requirements (subject to AHJ)

 

[pete_c]

@ Del
 

.that would make a lot of switchlegs and 3/4 ways non-compliant.

 
I am not understanding this statement.

 

[Del91574]

@ Pete,
 
If the original run had the circuit going up to a ceiling fixture and the only item that was dropped from that point down to a switch is the switchleg, there's no neutral that would be present at the switch and it would still be compliant per the NEC up to 2011. (post 2011 cycle would require a AHJ judgement). This could still be done as compliant in post 2011 code if you provide a neutral at the switch location (if the AHJ is being a stickler) so that would "technically" mean my original 14/2 switchleg now would need an additional conductor to be compliant.
 
In your locale in the Chicagoland area, conduit is the means for wiring due to some holdover from the old union days and attempts to keep the non-locals out of the industry, so your section of the country is definitely not the norm.
 
As I said, there's a lot of exceptions in how the code is written and liberties that could be taken if you read the code exactly as it is written. The biggest exception is written to be understood as there is the ability to add a neutral after the fact from an unfinished area, a neutral is not required within the box. The requirements are aimed towards "smart switch requirements" but it doesn't state that the conductor MUST be present.

 

[pete_c]

@ Del,
 
Thank-you. 
 
I wasn't present when the electric was run here in the midwest. 
 
That said having taken out the electric wires to look (switches, many ceiling fixtures et al) it looks like the electrician ran both hot and neutral leads to all of the ceiling cans (all of the bedrooms, living room, dining room family et al) and switch legs from the ceiling cans to the wall boxes.  He also installed an extra wire in all of the outlets going to same box or different boxes for 1/2 switching on the outlets stuff.  From what I can tell looking; it looked like his direction was ceiling fans everywhere that would be powered in the ceiling can or optionally on the wall switch (there are two ceiling switch leg wires in all of the bedrooms plus one switch leg for the outlets (different colors).  I am happy that there are so many wires everywhere.  I was not aware of non code issues with the stuff I have in place.  Upstairs hallway has four switches for the hallway cans; one by every bedroom door.  Each switch box also has a neutral and a hot running inside of them.  Main chandelier also has four switches; two upstairs and two downstairs.
 
I guess I like conduit because I was able to add many new circuits in the house using the conduit and not tearing into any walls.  I didn't really increase the total amperage or loads; just got more granular with the fuse panel.  I have done less DIY electric in FL (romex) because I didn't want to tear into the walls.
 
I am a Chicagoland person having been born here and now old turning into a curmudgeon. When building here in the midwest I did request that all of my electric be run in conduit paying "extra" for it if I needed to; same with copper plumbing.  
 
Did work for a gas and oil company a while back that "created"; in a literal sense guru welders; that said they purchased a plastic (tubing) company for their patients a few years back.  I got a bit involved and took safety classes with the underwater welders (they had short life span) while doing IT stuff.
 
Most folks though never really touch their electric once its done in a home; except for lately with many doing DIY automation stuff.

 

[Del91574]

I think the conduit/THHN method for the HV is decent, but I've watched guys get pretty creative and take a lot of meat out of the framing to get the pipe through studs and joists. For retrofit, it's great, but I would not want to try it myself.
 
Usually once you start wiring in a raceway method it becomes more critical to plan out what your're pulling in and the routing. The old, famous can't get there from here happens a lot.
 
From what it sounds like, your electrician was planning on switching the fan and light kit (or plan for it) in a single box. Usually no different than a guy that runs 14/3 to the ceiling pancake/fan box.

 

[pete_c]

Thank-you Del.
 
There was only a couple of fans installed.  I did put fans in many locations.
 
Yup; house is tight.  He went up to the second floor electric a few different ways; none though are adjacent to each other.
 
Every conduit that runs through wood is sealed; guessing that is code these days.  Never saw that though in the older homes.
 
I never met the contractor; but his name is written on a few pieces of wood in the house; seen during my DIYing stuff;
 
He seemed to care about his efforts here; Irish contractor.

 

[tmbrown97]

My understanding of the code is that it's highly recommended to run in such a way that there's a neutral in every box, but there are ways around it and it won't fail inspection over just that...  I'm in CA which tends to be pretty progressive (energy saving switches and fixtures are required everywhere, including motion sensors) pushing the need for neutrals; that said, my ~2005 house had one single switch that was a switch-leg (or end-of-run switch) - wired incorrectly of course so turning on the switch created a dead short and blew the breaker.
 
They were great here - deep boxes everywhere; neutrals everywhere but that one switch; and similarly, they ran 12/3 to each ceiling fixture for future fan use if desired.  It was a breeze to set up with UPB.

 

[RAL]

Here is what the 2011 NEC says about it (which may or may not apply in your jurisdiction).
 
404.2(C)
 
Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:

(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have sufficient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting circuit to the switch location whether or not the conductors in the raceway are required to be increased in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).

(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.

 

[Del91574]

And the creative interpretation to allow the exception for # 2:
 
The bottom plate or top plate for a house with a basement, crawl or attic negates the requirement for a neutral conductor. The argument is going to be whether the unfinished location feeder location constitutes another floor level or not. If I had my arguing shoes on, it clearly states that the neutral is not required as long as there is an unfinished area adjacent to the box, either above or below.
 
Those with slabs would need to provide the neutral on a multi-story building on the first floor only.

 

[drvnbysound]

I won't say with any certainly, but maybe this is why all of the new homes that I've seen have neutrals... because they are on slabs, are have all been single story.

 

[BaduFamily]

Deep Boxes.
 
This remodel had a few spots where the electrical subs crew weren't able to easily get multi gang deep boxes and put in shallow boxes.
 
in turn these had to be ripped out as we tried to get the Vantage stuff in. We had supplied them with dead Vantage switches for depth measurements, but.
 
that crew was laid off by the electrical subcontractor.

 

[pete_c]

The house in FL (tear down) is an elevated ranch with all 9 foot ceiling throughout. (elevated is some 8-9 feet or so).  Thinking it was some new FEMA stuff; maybe because house was next to the water?  I did not like the installation of the AC / heat unit in the garage elevated to ceiling height (which is over 12 feet up; making it difficult to service).  That said it was replaced about 3 years ago and lowering it to ground level was discussed; but decided to leave it up high anyways. The outside AC stuff is also elevated some 8 feet on a cement base with a sort of open cement wall on it.
 
I noticed too that the contractor put in "fire breaks" in all of the walls.  This too dings my efforts at any sort of adds (did only a couple).  Much of the romex goes to the attic and much is just between walls with metal plates over the drilled areas.  Contractor also lowered the standard height of all of the switches (which bugged me a bit); stating it was their design methodology.  I have though installed automated switches and have had no issues with the 3+1 ground romex running through the deeper boxes. Mostly all single and maybe 2-3 double throughout the house.  The kitchen 3-ways for the multiple cans get really warm but have done OK now in 12 years or so.

 

[NomisR]

Hi Guys,
 
Newbie question about neutrals.  So after pulling out my original dimmer switch to add a zwave dimmer, I found 2 white wires tied together and capped off in the back of the box all alone in the back.  Since the original dimmer didn't have a neutral, there's no wires coming out of it.  Based on the instructions of the zwave dimmer, i'm suppose to run a wire from the original 2 wires connected out, and then connect the wire that's on the dimmer to that wire.  
 
I don't really see a difference from connecting the wire from the dimmer directly to the 2 neutral wires though, is that correct?

 

[tmbrown97]

I never do the jumper wire you're describing - I just take the neutral from the switch and bundle it with the others in the box  with an appropriate wire nut.  

 

[ano]

The exception to that is if adding one more wire puts the number of connected wires together over the limit based on the wire size and wirenut capacity.  Then you would need to split it into two connections.